Summary
New information emerges about potential nuclear secrets discovered at Mar-a-Lago. President Biden welcomes Barack and Michelle Obama back to the White House for the unveiling of their official White House portraits. Steve Bannon is set to turn himself into New York investigators, as he now faces a new state criminal indictment. New York congressional candidate Matt Castelli speaks out. Republican hypocrisy on loan forgiveness is examined. EPA Administrator Michael Regan the Tennessee water crisis.
Transcript
ARI MELBER, MSNBC HOST: THE REIDOUT WITH JOY REID is up next.
JOY REID, MSNBC HOST: Tonight on THE REIDOUT:
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ALINA HABBA, ATTORNEY FOR DONALD TRUMP: I saw this meme that was very funny. On Instagram, I believe it was. And it`s said: It`s amazing. At first, it was the codes to the nuclear weapons.
QUESTION: Right.
HABBA: Now it`s invisible classified documents.
CHRISTINA BOBB, ATTORNEY FOR DONALD TRUMP: I have not specifically spoken to the president about what nuclear materials may or may not have been in there. I do not believe there were any in there.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
REID: Haven`t you, now?
Trump`s lawyers have been denying and joking about the possibility of nuclear secrets being stashed at Trump`s home. Now new reporting indicates it`s no joke. But Republicans are still defending him.
Also, tonight, the buddy act returns to the White House, as President Biden welcomes Barack and Michelle Obama back for the unveiling of their official White House portraits.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARACK OBAMA, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I want to thank Sharon Sprung for capturing everything I love about Michelle, her grace, her intelligence, and the fact that she`s fine.
(LAUGHTER)
(APPLAUSE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
REID: Ah, we miss them.
But we begin tonight with Steve Bannon, the former White House chief strategist, who is back in the news, usually for two reasons, such as attempting to dismantle the West or, as in this case, trouble with the law.
Two years ago, Bannon was dragged off a billionaire`s luxury yacht in handcuffs, charged with defrauding donors as part of a fund-raising scam purportedly aimed at funding Trump`s border wall that Mexico was supposed to pay for.
Now, racism can be profitable at times, allowing Bannon to line his pockets with nearly a million dollars in sweet wall donations that he, of course, use to fund a lavish lifestyle, instead of a wall.
After Trump pardoned Bannon for milking his own supporters, the Manhattan district attorney`s office opened its own investigation. And that`s because presidential pardons, well, they only apply to federal charges and cannot prohibit state prosecutions.
Bannon is now traveling to New York City to prepare to surrender in the morning to face charges in a new indictment that remains sealed. The precise details of the state case are unknown. But sources told "The Washington Post" that the prosecution will likely mirror the federal case.
Bannon was once known as the man behind Trump, a disrupter hell-bent on ensuring that white nationalism had a seat in the Oval Office. This is Trump`s guy, now likely to join the club of Trump allies who have served time for Trump.
For a group obsessed with locking her up, Trump`s inner circle knows a thing or two about being behind bars or behind walls. Trump`s people, well, they can go to jail, forced to face justice, so why not him?
The Bannon case prove this point. I mean, it will be handled in New York state Supreme Court by Manhattan district attorney Alvin Bragg, the same Alvin Bragg who declined to file criminal charges against Trump, leading two senior prosecutors to resign, meaning the prosecutor that`s taking down Bannon is the same prosecutor who essentially let Trump off the hook.
After all these years, Teflon Don still stands, even as he reportedly stashed a foreign government`s nuclear secrets at Mar-a-Lago club. That surreal, bonkers terrifying sentence I just said is actually a real thing happening in real life.
"The Washington Post" reported that a document the FBI seized at Trump`s crib designed -- described a foreign government`s military defenses, including its nuclear capabilities. And some of the seized documents detailed top secret U.S. operations so closely guarded that many senior national security officials are kept in the dark about them.
The recklessness is astonishing. And yet Trump claims it`s all a hoax. His attorney even mocked the allegation the same day that this news came out. Trump`s litany of excuses seem almost perverse at this point, that he declassified ultra-secret national security secrets on a foreign nation, nuclear secrets, with just a wave of his Trumpy magic wand.
Yes, that is not a thing. That he was transferring them to his presidential library -- also a no. That the documents do not even belong to the United States government. Sounded like quite the child and the dictator. It`s not theirs. It`s my mine, mine, mine, mine, mine.
Trump has always been a serious threat to national security of the United States, a disaster, frankly, doing things that no one else would or could get away with, not even his friends. Teflon Don, when will accountability actually stick to him?
[19:05:04]
Joining me now Michael Cohen, former -- Trump`s former personal attorney, and host of the "Mea Culpa" podcast, Marc Polymeropoulos, MSNBC national security analyst and former CIA officer, and Paul Butler, MSNBC legal analyst and a former federal prosecutor.
And I`m going to start with you, Paul, because, I`m sorry, but this was the subject of our 11:00 call. We do an 11:00 call on the show. We just -- we talk it out for like an hour. And this is my -- this was my -- this was my thing that I could not get away from.
How in the hell is Donald Trump so impervious to justice? This guy has not paid taxes his whole adult life, except when he worked for the same company I do, when he was on "The Apprentice." He`s gotten away with tax fraud, insurance fraud, defrauding the American government, enriching himself off the presidency, and now stealing government documents, including nuclear secrets.
He`s untouchable. Why?
PAUL BUTLER, MSNBC LEGAL ANALYST: In this case, because of Judge Cannon.
She admitted that she`s treating this case differently because it involves a former president. But, Joy, as you know, in our criminal legal system, no one is supposed to be above the law. And so when the judge starts giving Trump special consideration, she basically has to make up a whole new procedure just for former presidents.
And that`s pretty much what she did. First, the judge blesses Donald Trump with a special master to review documents that, under the law, don`t even belong to him. And then the judge orders DOJ to stop parts of its criminal investigation. That almost certainly exceeds her authority. It`s just not a good look for the appearance of justice when a judge appointed by Donald Trump extends to Donald Trump benefits that no other subject of a search warrant would get and that will almost certainly substantially delay the criminal investigation.
REID: And that no one will ever get.
Let me -- let me play a witness in the defense of what I just said. His name is Donald J. Trump. This is what Donald J. Trump said about the handling of classified documents and how that should be dealt with.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We can`t have someone in the Oval Office who doesn`t understand the meaning of the word confidential or classified.
This was not just extreme carelessness with classified material, which is still totally disqualifying. This is calculated, deliberate, premeditated misconduct, followed by a cover-up.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
REID: Marc Polymeropoulos, these comments were about Hillary Clinton. He said the same about James Comey. He said the same about John Bolton.
From a national security professional standpoint, from your standpoint, how is it possible that a man can steal national security secrets of the United States and of another country, maybe an ally, maybe an enemy, take them home, and not have any consequences whatsoever?
MARC POLYMEROPOULOS, MSNBC NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: So, Joy, I really think we have to leave it to the FBI. And I think that`s why the appointment of the special master is a little troubling.
This is going to delay the FBI`s role in this. This is not like wine. It doesn`t age well. Bad news does not get better over time. But I think the "Washington Post" reporting was really interesting.
First and foremost, it`s concerning, because you have, of course, information potentially about either our adversary or an ally`s nuclear program. You have things -- information there about Special Access Programs, which is really the -- kind of the crown jewels of the United States government.
But here`s why it`s really important, because I think it really reinforces what the Department of Justice and the FBI did, which was to search Mar-a- Lago. And that is really, really significant, when you have large majorities of the American public still questioning this.
I think we can put the bed the notion this is a storage problem, and we really have to let the FBI do its work. Remember, Bill Barr, a former attorney general, came out over the weekend really in favor of this. And he was a CIA employee at the beginning of his career. He was an attorney in CIA. He knows a bit about classified information.
I think Donald Trump`s in trouble, and we really need the FBI to jump in and conduct an investigation, and really in a timely manner.
REID: Is he in trouble, though?
Michael Cohen, I -- the reason I would love -- I wanted to talk to you today, because is he in trouble really? Because this guy`s been committing crimes basically for his entire adult life. His dad didn`t pay taxes. He doesn`t pay taxes. He defrauds the insurance companies of New York. He defrauds the taxpayers of New York. He defrauds the United States IRS.
He literally appears to be a crime machine, and no one will stop him. No one can stop him. He could literally, at this point, I believe -- I think he was right. He could shoot someone on Fifth Avenue in New York City in the middle of the street, and no one would touch him. He`s un-bloody touchable.
Please explain. You know the guy. How?
MICHAEL COHEN, FORMER ATTORNEY/FIXER FOR DONALD TRUMP: Yes, I`m not so sure. I agree with that statement.
[19:10:00]
Yes, he`s gotten away with so much already, from obstruction of justice, witness tampering, tax fraud, wire fraud, bank fraud, misrepresentations. He`s gotten away with a litany of things.
However -- and this makes me scratch my head -- the taking of classified documents, I mean, nuclear top secret documents, should no longer be a Republican vs. a Democratic issue.
And I listen to all of the pundits on television, whether it`s this station, CNN, FOX. I listen to them all. This is an American issue. And I don`t understand what we`re doing. It`s not a question of whether the law is being applied equally to all. It is not.
I mean, for God`s sakes, the DOJ, they`re tiptoeing around Donald, as if he was the king, right, the supreme leader or a monarch. And, again, he is not. So, like what you said before, if the adage that no one is above the law holds true, then Donald should have been indicted already and facing consequences.
But I will tell you what I do think is going to happen. I think that there`s going to be an indictment, and relatively soon. I believe there will also be congressional hearings, with Donald in the hot seat, where either he will come in willingly, which you know I don`t think he will, or via subpoena, where -- I mean, the real questions that they have to be asking right now is, where are the documents that were in these empty top secret files that were found at Mar-a-Lago?
I mean, that`s really the big question. And who did Donald give them to or show them to? Because, like you have also said, and I have been saying it since day number one, Joy, Donald is a clear and present danger to the national security and safety of this country. And if this doesn`t prove it, I`m not sure that anything will.
So I agree with you. But I don`t agree with you in the fact that he`s not going to be held accountable for this. This is too big at this point in time.
REID: Let me ask you this question, Michael, because we don`t know him. I don`t know him personally. I never met him.
You know him. You have dealt with him for a very long time. Can you speculate -- and I`m asking you to literally speculate, and I`m acknowledging that I`m asking you to do that. Why would he want to have the nuclear secrets of some country, ally or enemy? Why would he want to have classified information? Why would he take the contents of classified folders out and put them God knows where?
Why do you think that he wanted this stuff?
COHEN: So this is all about power for Donald Trump. This is all about him still remaining relevant and exerting the power, whether it`s going to be over the United States as extortion, that, in the event you indict me or even members of my family, though he doesn`t particularly care much about them, if you indict me and try to incarcerate, I have nuclear secrets that I have instructed some of my followers to turn over to our adversaries, right?
That`s what I believe. It`s all -- it`s all about him maintaining power, but not just over this country, over foreign countries as well. And the dangerous part that we`re all doing right now is creating these hypotheticals, right? Is the nuclear secrets Israel, and maybe he`s given them to Mohammed bin Salman, and that`s why they gave Jared Kushner $2 billion, $2.5 billion.
You see, that`s why we have the Presidential Records Act. That`s why we have laws, so that we`re not supposed to come up with these hypotheticals. We`re supposed to know that these documents are in the possession of individuals who are supposed to have them in secured locations, not somewhere in his office at Mar-a-Lardo, where they have a thousand members running around.
You had Chinese individuals that were there in 2019 that weren`t supposed to be there with thumb drives. It`s not supposed to be happening.
REID: Yes.
COHEN: And everything Donald is doing is designed to disrupt.
REID: Marc Polymeropoulos, you did this for a living. You were in this business.
I`m not asking you to speculate about Donald Trump personally. You don`t know him either. If this same situation were happening, and let`s just say it was it was John Drumpf, it was not Donald Trump, what would be the thing that you would be the most concerned about, about an individual having these documents?
POLYMEROPOULOS: So, Joy, it`s a great question, because there is certainly a double standard. There`s an appearance of one. I think everyone recognizes that.
Now, for a regular national security official, if you take these documents home, even inadvertently, you`re in huge trouble.
REID: Yes.
POLYMEROPOULOS: So, the question is, why did he have them, number one, and what was he going to do with them?
And that`s -- that motive is really important for the FBI to figure out. But let me just -- let me just give you -- the day I walked out of the CIA when I retired, I had a small box. I had a couple Persian rugs and some mementos from my time overseas, and that`s all you take home.
This is inconceivable what he had there. And, in particular, if we`re to believe the "Washington Post" reporting, these are these are really crown jewel-type information that would probably land myself or any other senior executive in the national security establishment -- not only we would be -- would we be fired. We`d probably go to jail for this.
[19:15:14]
And so it`s incredibly serious. And that`s why I think that, in my tribe, those of us who really worked in national security for many years, we really need to see this through.
REID: Very quickly before we go, Paul Butler, Reality Winner wanted to help. She was concerned about Russia`s interference in the U.S. election.
And so she made available some documents to The Intercept. She is -- she got locked up, OK? She spent, I think, at least five years in prison for that. And she was trying to help the United States. She had no intention of harming us, trying to help us.
And Donald Trump is still free as a bird. If this judge had not interceded, wouldn`t the next step be to search Bedminster, to search Trump Tower, to search every bloody property that this man owns to see if there`s more? And can they do that now that this judge, who`s Donald Trump`s judge and obviously his ally, has said, stop the investigation?
BUTLER: They can.
She said they can`t use the information that was recovered in the search warrant for leads, but they can certainly continue the investigation, and not just looking in his office. Remember, these documents were found on Trump`s residence and even in a storage closet.
So Joy, that is shocking, it`s scary, but it`s also incriminating. DOJ typically doesn`t prosecute cases that are only about retention of classified documents. The feds bring a case if there`s some extra factor, like intentional mishandling, or evidence of disloyalty to the United States, or evidence of obstruction of justice.
All of those factors should be of great concern to the former president.
REID: I think the most important thing that was said here -- and I thank this panel -- is that this is not a partisan issue. This is not an issue about Donald Trump being a Republican. Who bloody cares?
This is an issue of our national security. And every single person watching this show, watching any network should be concerned about it, not because about -- it`s not about Donald Trump. It`s about our national security. And he ought to have -- at least give a damn about that, if he`s an American that cares about this country.
Thank you, Michael Cohen. Thank you, Marc Polymeropoulos. Thank you, Paul Butler.
Up next on THE REIDOUT: As the revelations about Trump`s classified documents just get worse and worse and more terrifying, Republicans, with a tiny handful of exceptions, refuse, refuse, refuse to call him out.
And, later, it was just like old times. Talk about a turn. The Bidens and the Obamas together again at the White House.
The REIDOUT continues after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[19:22:21]
REID: In the days after Donald Trump announced that the FBI had searched his Mar-a-Lago home, "The New York Times" reported that some senior Republicans had been warned by Trump allies not to continue to be aggressive in criticizing the Justice Department and the FBI over the matter, because it is possible that more damaging information related to the search will become public.
That was some excellent advice for those Trump allies, especially as we continue to learn more, not only about how many classified documents were actually found, but also how highly classified they were, like perhaps pertaining to the nuclear capabilities of a foreign country.
Unfortunately, that advice was either not shared with the rest of the party or just wholly ignored, because, by and large, the party that under Trump lost control of the House and the Senate and the White House is still standing behind him.
And it`s not just that they`re, like, staying loyal to their dear leader. They`re actually tripping all over themselves, trying to find any excuse to downplay Trump`s actions, which sure do seem criminal, while blaming the FBI, the DOJ and the Biden administration, maybe God and the Tooth Fairy next.
This morning, Senator Marco Rubio, the ranking member of the Senate Intelligence Committee, who over the weekend called the investigation a document storage issue, is now providing more cover for papa Trump with further attacks on the DOJ.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. MARCO RUBIO (R-FL): So it was really that sort of an urgent problem, why didn`t they immediately demand their return? Why didn`t they come to the Gang of Eight or the Intelligence Committee heads and say, look, we have got this major problem on our hands?
Instead, what we get is these constant leaks. And the only reason to leak to the media is to influence the narrative, which tells you this is being politicized.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(LAUGHTER)
REID: Joining me now is Matt Castelli, a former CIA officer who`s running for Congress against, guess who, Elise Stefanik, in New York`s 21st Congressional District.
I`m sorry. I didn`t mean to laugh. But I do find much of what Marco Rubio says to be humorous.
Would you like to answer his question? He thinks it`s no biggie, no biggie, and that it`s proved to be no biggie because no one went to him and his committee. Your thoughts?
MATT CASTELLI (D), NEW YORK CONGRESSIONAL CANDIDATE: Hi, Joy. Thank you for having me.
Listen, I spent nearly 15 years at the CIA serving our country, and I take great issue with any politician who would put their career and their reelection prospects ahead of protecting our country. This is a grave issue. There has been a serious breach of our national security.
And chief among them, in my view is, Congresswoman Elise Stefanik, who, as you know, is the GOP House messaging chief. And, in that role, she`s now setting the tone for the message for this midterm election as we go into and reveal more of these details about this investigation.
Her response to that was to put a target on the back of law enforcement. Her response to that in the last week or so was to say that this investigation was a hoax.
[19:25:05]
Now, listen, I spent nearly 15 years at the CIA. And when you walk into CIA headquarters, you will find 139 stars on the wall of CIA officers who died in the line of duty collecting and protecting our nation`s secrets, the same kind of secrets we`re talking about here.
I`d like folks like Elise Stefanik or Marco Rubio to look those family members in the eyes and to tell them that their sacrifice was in vain, to tell them that this threat to our national security was all a hoax.
I know you had my good friend Marc Polymeropoulos just on. And he accurately pointed out, if any one of us walked out of CIA headquarters with one piece of classified information of this level, we would have been behind bars.
And so I think the American people are growing sick and tired of there being a separate set of rules for the rich and powerful. And they`re also sick and tired of politicians who are more interested in protecting the rich and powerful than they are in protecting us.
REID: And just to be very clear, I want to read the whole quote.
This is what Elise Stefanik, to your point, said last week about Trump`s mishandling of classified documents.
She said: "This is," as you said, "Russia hoax 2.0, with the typical loyal media accomplices. The latest leak justification that started off as nuclear codes has now morphed into whatever Joe Biden`s corrupt allies think the media will transcribe, as the loyal stenographers they are. The fact of the matter is, the Biden White House is using Department of Justice and the FBI as political arms of Joe Biden`s campaigns," yadda, yadda, yadda.
And what is -- I have to ask you this. As somebody who -- like you said, you`re running for office now, but you were in the CIA. You were a nonpartisan? Can I -- can I -- am I accurate that the CIA does not take a partisan inside, right?
CASTELLI: Correct.
REID: OK.
CASTELLI: All of our national security, professionals, the military, we don`t take partisan sides.
REID: Correct.
CASTELLI: We swear an oath to the Constitution.
REID: Right.
So, have you ever in your life, in your career, in 15 years heard of a political actor on the Republican or Democratic side blowing off the idea of national security secrets being stolen from the United States?
CASTELLI: No.
And this is a serious concern that everyone should have right now, when we look at folks like Elise Stefanik, who is willing to sell out our country and our national security to protect and advance their own careers.
Stefanik, this is a pattern of behavior. We know her to be a sellout. And this is something we see in our district, in the 21st Congressional District, where I`m running against her. And my opponent has sold out veterans by voting against veterans` health benefits. She`s sold out women by voting against guaranteeing reproductive rights.
She`s sold out our seniors by voting against reducing the cost of prescription drugs. Time and time again, we see folks like Elise Stefanik, who would rather put their own career advancement ahead of the needs of our country, our national security and our community.
And it strikes me that Donald Trump himself once had a word for folks like Elise Stefanik. He called them the swamp. And I think he was exactly right.
REID: Let me ask you this, just as a -- just from your former job point of view.
Talk about what the risks would be of this kind of information being out there, because this is not an -- I have talked about the other day. We had a rash of deaths of our agents around the world that the CIA had to cop to, that they lost a lot of agents, people who had give -- put their lives on the line for us. And they died.
And it was during the time -- and I`m not saying it was related to it, but it sure was during the time Donald Trump had custody of our secrets. What is the worst-case scenario for somebody that`s in this field? It is dangerous? What are the risks that people take when they, for instance, decide to spy on our behalf?
CASTELLI: Yes.
Well, we certainly have put individuals in harm`s way, they put themselves in harm`s way in order to provide us with information to protect U.S. national security, to advance our national security interests. And those lives may currently be at risk, because we did not, in this instance, keep that classified information contained in a safe space.
There are reasons why there are requirements around all of this. There are reasons why we keep them in safe spaces. We don`t just allow them to hang out in a Florida resort, open, in some sort of basement storage unit or worse.
But in addition to the lives that may be at risk, we have billions of dollars of taxpayer-funded collection systems that may be at risk. Certainly, U.S. standing in the world with our allies or our enemies is at risk. So there are grave national security implications from these events.
REID: And they are not partisan risks. These are risks to our entire country. Every 300 and -- every one of the 327-some-odd million people in this country are -- it`s -- all of are in this together. Come on, people, wake up.
Mark -- Matt Castelli, Matt Castelli, thank you very much. And best of luck in your campaign.
Still ahead:
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MICHELLE OBAMA, FORMER FIRST LADY: A girl like me, she was never supposed to be up there next to Jacqueline Kennedy and Dolley Madison.
That is what this country is about. It`s not about blood or pedigree or wealth. It`s a place where everyone should have a fair shot.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[19:30:00]
REID: The Bidens welcome the Obamas back to the White House for a beautiful and, at times hilarious, unveiling of the Obamas` official portraits.
President Obama`s campaign right-hand man, David Plouffe, joins me next to discuss.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARACK OBAMA, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: You`ll note that he refused to hide any of my gray hairs.
[19:35:00]
(LAUGHTER)
B. OBAMA: Refused my request to make my ears smaller.
(LAUGHTER)
B. OBAMA: He also talked me out of wearing a tan suit, by the way.
(LAUGHTER)
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
REID: It`s when he laughs at his own jokes. That`s what makes it -- it was a day full of laughs and legacy at the White House, as former President Barack Obama and former first lady Michelle Obama returned for the ceremonial unveiling of their official portraits painted by artists Robert McCurdy and Sharon Sprung. Remember those names.
President Joe Biden hosted his former boss, their infamous bromance on full display. This was the first portrait unveiling in more than 10 years, after the decades-long tradition was shunned by the previous administration.
But perhaps that pettiness was actually for the good, as this moment of levity is something I think we all needed. It wasn`t all fun and laughs, though. The two also got in some subtle, but pointed lines on the current state of affairs.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
B. OBAMA: Maybe most of all, thanks to your faith in our democracy and the American people, the country is better off than when you took office, and we should all be deeply grateful for that.
M. OBAMA: Traditions like this matter not just for those of us who hold these positions, but for everyone participating in and watching our democracy.
You see, the people, they make their voices heard with their vote. We hold an inauguration to ensure a peaceful transition of power.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
REID: It was also an historic moment, as the Obamas will be the first black family to have their portraits hung in the White House.
Michelle spoke on that significance as well.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
M. OBAMA: We`re looking at today a portrait of a biracial kid with an unusual name...
(LAUGHTER)
M. OBAMA: ... and the daughter of a water pump operator and a stay-at-home mom. What we are seeing is a reminder that there`s a place for everyone in this country, because, as Barack said, if the two of us can end up on the walls of the most famous address in the world, then, again, it is so important for every young kid who is doubting themselves to believe that they can too.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
REID: Joining me now is David Plouffe, MSNBC political analyst and a former White House senior adviser.
And, David, it is so rare that I get to invite you on to talk about something that can make a smile, so I`m really glad that you were available today.
I got so many texts today of people who were feeling the Obama/Biden nostalgia. It was literally the greatest buddy act, I think, in the history of politics, but also seeing Barack Obama and Michelle Obama together and there.
I mean, even the Jill Biden making President Biden get up and clap by himself, it was really great. What were your thoughts about today?
DAVID PLOUFFE, MSNBC POLITICAL ANALYST: Yes.
Well, it was a great moment, historical moment. I think that the Obamas and all the staff clearly were having a great time in the East Room, a lot of laughs, but also some pointed and important messages about the state of our democracy.
So -- but I think you mentioned, Joy, that maybe it was best that this waited. And I think you`re right.
REID: Yes.
PLOUFFE: I think this would have been incredibly awkward, to be generous, in the last administration.
So this was a celebration, not just of the Obamas -- certainly, that was part of it -- but everything that was accomplished in his administration. And it was great that he also, I think, talked about the difference Joe Biden has made as president.
So, yes, it`s nice to be able to smile in the midst of all the carnage that the Republicans are wreaking across the country.
REID: You know, the thing about it is, David, is that we have gotten so out of touch with the things that were traditional, right?
I mean, it`s not unusual for a vice president to follow the president into office. Eisenhower, his vice president was Richard Nixon, right? Richard Nixon eventually becomes president. George Herbert Walker Bush was vice president to Ronald Reagan.
Like, there are all of these things that sort of fit into the tradition. Obviously, the Obamas were a huge change in tradition, because Barack Obama`s a black guy. So that was different. His name is different.
But the thing that struck me today is how much they fit into the overall traditions of the American republic, the idea of the peaceful transfer of power, the idea that there is this congeniality in politics.
I feel like Trump has so disrupted that and has introduced so much violence into just the narrative of American politics, not just January 6, but his whole political vibe is violent, that I feel like we have lost that.
Do you worry that we have lost it permanently, and that today was a nice day, but not the way politics is going to ever be again?
PLOUFFE: Well, I think that`s the existential question, Joy.
This next election in `22 and then the big election in `24 will determine whether Trump was just a four-year aberration and then, obviously, a few years after that, where we were sorely tested, or whether the entire thing falls apart.
So, you`re right. I mean, Barack Obama and Michelle Obama obviously broke the race barrier. My son just turned 18, which is why I had to stay in California. And I`m reminded, when he was very little, he had these -- a place mat of all the presidents.
REID: Yes.
[19:40:07]
And, obviously, they all were of a certain gender and race. And there`s Barack Obama.
(LAUGHTER)
REID: Yes.
PLOUFFE: At the age of 3, he is like, wow.
But I think that, yes, you saw in the Obamas the love of this country, of our institutions, of the rule of law. Michelle Obama talked, when your time is done, you move on.
And we often would talk about that in the White House, that this was just a relay race, and you had the baton for your time, whether that`s four or eight years, and you pass it on. Whether you like the person you`re passing it on to or not there, you pass it on.
And I think, for the most part, historically -- and what I have always struck when I talk to people who`ve worked in prior administrations, the reverence that they hold for that building, for the institution, and that sense of history.
REID: Yes.
PLOUFFE: So, we were reminded of that today, that I think the Obamas obviously are unique in their story. They have some unique rhetorical gifts, but they`re not unique in history`s span about their faithfulness to the Constitution.
And I think that`s the question. And even if Trump doesn`t run, if somebody else runs who believes what he does, and the election is illegitimately provided to someone who didn`t get votes, I think the country is over as we know it.
So we are definitely, definitely on a knife`s edge still. So, yes, today was a nice moment, but it really was just an interruption in this sort of historical battle that`s going on for whether America is going to remain a democracy or not.
REID: Absolutely.
Let me just throw some statistics out there for folks. Joe Biden is not unusual, in terms of where he stands with the American people. He is at 44 percent approval. That`s better than Donald Trump. It`s exactly what Barack Obama was, where he was at.
But the idea that the country -- that Republicans -- 54 percent of Republicans believe America will be less of a democracy than it is now, 56 percent of Democrats believe the same thing, and that 64 percent of Americans believe that political violence is going to increase, increase in this country tells me that we are looking down the barrel of something truly terrifying, that we will look back on the Obama and Biden presidencies as the end of something, and the Obama -- and the Trump presidency as the beginning of something, and something terrible.
I worry about that a lot.
PLOUFFE: Well...
REID: Do you?
PLOUFFE: Unless, Joy, we put an end to it.
So that`s the challenge, which is the Trump presidency and the few years after it can be this time in American history where Republican -- with leaders of a party, too many of them anyway, and a lot of their supporters were OK with America becoming an autocracy.
We can stop that. There`s well north of 50 percent, well north of 60 percent, I would argue even well north of 70 percent of people -- I wish it was 100 -- it`s not -- who`d like us to remain a democracy, who believe the candidate who gets the most votes should win the election, who believes we should have peaceful transfers of power.
So that`s the -- basically, the challenge now is, whether you`re an independent, Democrat or Republican, you can disagree on a whole bunch of stuff. We have to make common cause to defeat those who are election deniers, to defeat those who basically want to turn America into an autocracy.
Then, once that is safe...
REID: Yes.
PLOUFFE: ... we can go back into our corners and fight about how many people should have health care and what the tax rate should be, right?
(CROSSTALK)
REID: Yes, 100 percent.
My problem isn`t the 70 percent. I agree with you it`s 70 percent. My problem is a handful of judges, including six on the Supreme Court, and a handful of judges out there like Cannon, like this Judge Cannon, and a handful of really way-out-there politicians, way out there in la-la land.
But we will talk about that another day.
David Plouffe, it`s always a pleasure. Thank you very much for being here. Cheers.
And up next: Republicans are scram, scram, scrambling to find ways to keep millions of Americans from -- get this -- receiving student loan debt relief, while ignoring all the hypocrisy about all those forgiven PPP loans.
We will be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[19:48:40]
REID: President Biden recently fulfilled a campaign promise to cancel some federal student loan debt.
It will be the single largest discharge of education debt ever. And it was welcomed by roughly 43 million Americans. Now, to put that in clearer terms, one-third of adults under 30 owe 34 percent of all student loan debt.
This relief will go towards helping an epidemiologist in New Orleans who cares for her disabled mother, or a call center supervisor in Ohio, or a teacher in Florida. Well, I mean, at least it`s supposed to. But if Republicans have their way, it might not happen.
"The Washington Post" reports that Republicans are looking to sue their way into blocking the relief. A number of Republican attorneys general from a state -- from states, including Arizona, Missouri and Texas, have met privately to discuss a strategy that could see multiple cases filed in different courts across the country.
It should shock absolutely no one that Texas Senator Ted Cruz, the guy famous for ditching his state when people were literally freezing to death, is leading the charge. Now, mind you, Republicans, who seem to really enjoy making regular Americans` lives harder, sure do love loan forgiveness when it comes to their own personal businesses.
Several of them personally benefited from having Paycheck Protection Program, or PPP, loans forgiven during the pandemic. That includes representative Vern Buchanan of Florida, who got $2.6 million forgiven for his car dealerships, Marjorie Taylor Greene, who got $182,000 for her family`s construction business.
[19:50:20]
Mike Kelly of Pennsylvania got close to $1 million forgiven for his four car dealerships. Greg Pence, brother of former President -- former Vice President Mike Pence, got $79,000 forgiven for his two antique malls. And Kevin Hern of Oklahoma, who owns a restaurant management company, well, he got more than a million dollars in forgivable loans.
Oh, and there`s another thing student loan borrowers have to contend with. Indiana, Mississippi, Minnesota, Wisconsin, Arkansas and North Carolina all require that you pay taxes on any student loan debt that`s forgiven, while not requiring the same for PPP loans. Sorry, poors, you should have been born rich or run for Congress.
And up next: glimmers of hope, as water service is restored to many residents of Jackson, Mississippi. But that crisis is also a dire warning about the growing risks associated with the climate crisis.
EPA Administrator Michael Regan joins me next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[19:55:30]
REID: After a week in which 150,000 residents of Jackson, Mississippi, had no access to safe drinking water, many without running water at all, water pressure in the city has been restored.
But there`s still a boil advisory that`s been in effect for more than a month now. And while water may be restored, the city is no closer to fixing its decaying infrastructure, which the mayor says could cost a billion dollars.
Jackson isn`t the only city facing a water crisis related to old infrastructure. E. coli was discovered in Baltimore`s water system, and arsenic was discovered in the water at a public housing complex in New York City.
Today, EPA Administrator Michael Regan visited Jackson and promised to fix the systemic problem.
And he joins me now.
Thank you very much, Secretary Regan. I appreciate you being -- Administrator Regan, thank you for being here.
What can be done about Jackson, and when?
MICHAEL REGAN, ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY ADMINISTRATOR: Well, thank you for having me, Joy.
I`m here for two reasons. The first is, I convened a meeting today with the governor of Jackson and the mayor of Jackson and said, listen, we have to put aside our political differences. There are millions of dollars on the table right now that Jackson needs to apply for, so that we can begin to move forward, $43 million, to be exact, that Jackson has access to immediately.
That`s before we get into the resources from the bipartisan infrastructure law. The other reason I`m here is, I`m meeting with residents here in Jackson. I sat in Ms. Anderson`s living room today, 92 years old.
And you know what she told me, Joy? She said: "I`m tired of the finger- pointing. I don`t care who`s wrong. Just fix the problem."
So, what I want to do is continuing to move forward and fix this problem.
REID: Let me ask you this, because we know that there have been issues not just with Tate Reeves, with the previous governors, that, when they have gotten federal money, they spend it on whatever they want, whether that`s, like, building a new tennis facility or whatever.
Is there a way for the city of Jackson itself to apply for some of that money that was in the big infrastructure bill and get that money directly to Jackson, bypassing whatever the state would want to do with it?
REGAN: Well, Joy, the way it`s structured, we have to work with the state.
What I can say to you is, Congress put some strings on this. Over 50 percent of the resources from the bipartisan infrastructure bill has to go to disadvantaged communities, communities of color, communities exactly like Jackson. So there are some strings on the resources moving forward.
But that $43 million that`s sitting there right now, I got a commitment today from the governor and the mayor and both U.S. senators that we would work together to put together a structure and a package so that Jackson could be competitive for those dollars.
It`s our job to be sure that every person in Jackson has access to good- quality drinking water. And so I`m on the ground here today brokering deals, getting people to put aside political differences, get in the same room, and let`s row forward together.
REID: I mean, by the way, Jackson isn`t like just some small community of color. It`s the capital of Mississippi. It`s the capital city. They don`t have water the capital city.
Let me ask you about California very, very, very quickly. They have almost had a -- they have an electricity crisis right now because of the heat. Is there anything the EPA can do about what`s going on out West?
REGAN: You know, I think that`s another example.
Listen, I -- we put together rules that began to reduce pollution that are exacerbating this climate crisis. But in the bipartisan infrastructure law, the Department of Energy received significant resources to invest in a more resilient grid.
We`re also putting together rules and regulations that encourage more investment in clean energy, which is distributed, so that we can be more nimble and mobile as we face this climate crisis.
Joy, I would say that the president`s vision around mitigating the climate crisis and preparing for the future in an adaptive way is really intertwined into these resources that we have at our fingertips.
And so you have an entire Cabinet. From DOE, to Agriculture, to EPA, to Labor, we`re all working together to create economies of the future, use technology of the future to generate clean energy, so that our society can adapt and be globally competitive.
REID: Next time you talk with Tate Reeves, the governor of Mississippi, please tell him I would love for him to come on this show with you, and let`s talk about what can be done, and maybe with Mayor Lumumba, because you`re right.
This is not a partisan issue, whether or not there`s clean drinking water. It should be an issue for everyone in Mississippi. And, for God`s sakes, they should care about their own capital.
EPA Administrator Michael Regan, I really do appreciate you being here. Thank you for all you`re doing. And I appreciate you. And please come back.
All right everyone, that`s a wrap. I hope you guys enjoyed the Obama and Biden coming together today. I know I sure did.
That is tonight`s REIDOUT.
"ALL IN WITH CHRIS HAYES" starts right now.