Transcript
American Radical: episode 1
Who Killed Rosanne Boyland?
Ayman Mohyeldin: This episode and this series contain descriptions and recordings of violence that some listeners might find disturbing. There are also references to drug abuse, and a fair amount of profanities. We don't want you to be caught off guard.
Donald Trump: (APPLAUSE) All of us here today do not want to see our election victory stolen by a bold and radical left Democrat, which is what they're doing. (CHANTING)
Archival Recording: The president at the rally moments ago, riling this crowd up, telling them to go.
Archival Recording: I'm just getting a message right now, saying all buildings within the Capitol complex, external security threat, no entry or exit is permitted.
Mohyeldin: January 6, 2021. The situation at the U.S. Capitol is rapidly spiraling out of control. (MUSIC)
Archival Recording: We are having a couple reports of people being injured in this breach of the security. And--
Archival Recording: All told, at least 15 calls for injuries from the Capitol, but all these numbers are expected to increase per the spokesperson.
Archival Recording: (IN PROGRESS) --appears to be a female. Clearly, a lot of blood. And the workers who were tending to her clearly attempting some resuscitation efforts.
Mohyeldin: The rioters trying to stop Congress from certifying the presidential election are overrunning police barricades and breaking through windows along the eastern side of the building. (YELLING) By about 2:15 p.m., Trump supporters are running wild in the hallways, and the House and Senate go into emergency recess.
Archival Recording: Congressman, how will they get you out of the building? Where will you go?
Archival Recording: You know, I'm not sure at this point. But we are moving downstairs into the basement.
Archival Recording: Our Senate producer has just tweeted out video that there are protesters now on the Senate floor. (MUSIC)
Mohyeldin: But at the same time on the Capitol's west front, a very different kind of fight is playing out. (CHANTING) The west front is the side facing the National Mall, the ceremonial side. A series of tiered plazas and grand staircases climb up the slope of Capitol Hill to a center entrance set back in a tunnel. It's easier ground for the police to defend, and the protesters' advance is going much more slowly. (CHANTING AND YELLING) A group of officers (SIREN) from the Metropolitan Police Department, or MPD, arrive in riot gear to reinforce the perimeter. Their body cameras are rolling.
Archival Recording: All right, we're gonna cut right through there. Can we get through there?
Mohyeldin: They push their way through a hostile crowd.
Archival Recording: How does it feel to be a traitor? How does it feel to be a traitor? (YELLING)
Mohyeldin: Finally, the officers arrive at the barricade on the lower plaza. This is where the inauguration of Joe Biden is supposed to take place in just two weeks. But right now it's a full-on battle scene. Police and protesters are openly brawling. The air is thick with pepper spray. (YELLING) (HORNS) One of the people on the other side of the metal fencing is a free speech activist and Trump supporter named Philip Anderson.
Philip Anderson: That was an incredible moment. I had no idea this was gonna happen, but when it happened it felt like the coolest thing ever. Everyone's saying, "This is the best day of my life." Americans are rising up. We've had enough.
Mohyeldin: In Anderson's telling, police officers were attacking protesters. Everyone in the crowd saw it, and momentum started to build.
Anderson: When there's all these people around you, biggest crowd you've probably ever seen in your life, right? You're not thinkin' straight. People were just like, "Screw it. This is our House." And they just started taking ground and they started doing what they wanted. They're just like, "Eff these guys." And they just start pushing right through. (YELLING)
Archival Recording: Pull back. Pull back. Pull back. You gotta pull back. Fall back, fall back. (YELLING)
Mohyeldin: At 2:35 p.m., the police retreat up a wooden staircase behind the inauguration platform and up onto the upper plaza.
Archival Recording: You gotta hold these stairs.
Mohyeldin: But the mob is right behind them. (YELLING) The police have no choice but to fall back into the tunnel and into the Capitol itself.
Archival Recording: Let's go, MPD.
Mohyeldin: It's here with the rioters banging on the doors that commanders give the order to defend the entrance by any means necessary.
Archival Recording: We need everyone. Let's go. They're not gettin' in this building. (YELLING) We are not losing U.S. Capitol today. Do you hear me? We are not losing the U.S. Capitol. (YELLING)
Mohyeldin: A group of officers forms up at the doorway and braces against each other with their arms pushing back against the mob. (YELLING) Rioters keep making their way to the tunnel, mounting assaults on the doors in waves and dispersing as police push back. Among them is Philip Anderson.
Anderson: There was about 50 people who tried to get in through that front big entrance.
Mohyeldin: Out of the corner of his eye, he remembers seeing a woman in the crowd.
Anderson: There was nothing but men, really. And, like, she's at the back just standing there, kind of, like, bobbin' her head a little bit. And I was like, "All right." And then all hell breaks loose when the police begin gassing and we're not able to breathe. It wasn't even tear gas. Like, I was like, (GASPS) I turn around, run away as fast as I can, collapse, fall right on my face. Manage to get my arm in front of my face before that happened.
Mohyeldin: Anderson says that as the rioters in the tunnel ran away from the gas, they fell on top of each other. He says he got crushed under a pile of 30 people and that woman he had spotted, she ended up right next to him at the bottom.
Anderson: She was screaming a little bit and yelling for help, but then she went quiet. I guess she just realized that screaming wasn't gonna do anything. She was just gonnahave to try and survive it. (MUSIC) She was dying and she didn't want to feel alone so she grabs my hand and then she lets go.
And when she lets go of my hand, I'm like, "I really am gonna die. She just died. I'm gonna die. Get off me, help, help, help." And someone hears me and says, "Hey, there's someone down here." And he starts pullin' people off. (YELLING)
Mohyeldin: Body-cam video shows the fighting raging on. Rioters beating police officers with hockey sticks, even a crutch, shouting to knock their gas masks off. But if you stop the video at just the right moment, you can see something else. In the lower right-hand corner of the frame, a young woman in a black sweatshirt and ribbed jeans lying on her side, motionless. A man wearing a teal hoodie has his hand on her shoulder. He's trying to get help. And if you listen hard, you can hear what he's yelling.
Archival Recording: (YELLING) Gimme your hand. She's dead. She's dead. Please, I need somebody.
Mohyeldin: "She's dead," he shouts. "Please, I need somebody." And then--
Archival Recording: Roseanne. Roseanne. Roseanne.
Mohyeldin: "--Roseanne. Roseanne. Roseanne." (MUSIC) The woman lying on the steps was 34 years old. But she wasn't a political die hard or a long-time Trump supporter. In fact, everything she'd come to think about the world, the fervent convictions that drove her to fight and die at the Capitol, she'd come to believe in the span of just a few short months. Her name was Roseanne Boyland, and this is her story. From MSNBC, I'm Ayman Mohyeldin. And this is American Radical.
Mohyeldin: Episode one: Who Killed Roseanne Boyland? I'm a reporter and host of MSNBC here in New York. But I started my career as a producer covering terrorism and conflict all over the world, including Europe and the Middle East.
Mohyeldin: Just a short while ago, Hamesh's military wing here on the radio station claimed responsibility for that rocket that landed--
Mohyeldin: But I never thought my beat would take me back to the town where I went to high school, Kennesaw, Georgia. Three days after the Capitol riot I was sitting in my office when I got a Facebook message from an old classmate of mine, Justin Cave.
It said: "Ayman, I'm sure you've seen the news. I made a public statement about the death of my sister-in-law, Roseanne, from Kennesaw who died on Wednesday at the Capitol. My wife and I believe she was radicalized in a very short time inside of six months. Would you be willing to hear her story?"
Flight Attendant: Ladies and gentlemen, it's a pleasure to welcome you to Atlanta, where the local time is 12:40. Flight attendants, please prepare doors for arrival, cross check, and answer all calls. (NOISE)
Mohyeldin: So this is kind of nerve-wracking. We're heading to Justin and Lonna's house. It's been a while. I haven't seen Justin in a long time.
Gps Voice: Continue on Canton Road for two miles.
Mohyeldin: I spent years overseas reporting on extremism and radicalism. It's kind of surreal to think I'm back here in Kennesaw reporting on it in my own hometown, you know?
Gps Voice: You have arrived.
Mohyeldin: I think this is it. Yeah, this is it. (NOISE)
Mohyeldin: The house where Justin Cave lives with his wife Lonna is a pale yellow rancher, with a white pick up parked in the driveway, and signs of family life everywhere. The grass is matted down from footsteps, and there are kids' toys all over the place. I hadn't seen Justin in my 20 years, and I'd never met Lonna. It was a little awkward. I was a little nervous to be dropping in on an old friend and his family after so long, and under such awful circumstances.
Mohyeldin: Good morning.
Lonna Cave: Morning, come on in.
Mohyeldin: How are you?
L. Cave: Good, how are you?
Mohyeldin: Good.
L. Cave: Oh yeah, just let me put Penelope out. Penelope.
Justin Cave: Hey, you guys.
Mohyeldin: Hey. What's happening?
J. Cave: What's up, buddy?
Mohyeldin: How's it goin'?
J. Cave: Good, it's good to see you.
Mohyeldin: So good to see you.
J. Cave: How are you?
Mohyeldin: I'm good, man, how are you? So good--
J. Cave: Good, good to see you--
Mohyeldin: --to see you, likewise.
J. Cave: This is our dog, Penelope.
Mohyeldin: Well, what a beautiful dog. Hey, Penelope.
J. Cave: She's harmless.
Mohyeldin: Yeah. She's happy. I think she smells the doughnuts.
J. Cave: You wanna get some doughnuts?
Mohyeldin: We got you a special delivery.
J. Cave: All right.
Mohyeldin: We heard sour cream is the way to go, right? (LAUGH)
L. Cave: Yes, yes it is.
Mohyeldin: Justin and I met when we were 14 years old, when I first moved to Kennesaw. I was born in Egypt, but grew up in Jordan and had just moved to the United States. We were both in Mrs. Morrison's current affairs class. And after school, we played on the varsity soccer team together. He still calls me by my soccer team nickname.
J. Cave: Isn't every day I've got the Egyptian Magician in my office (LAUGH) here.
Mohyeldin: You haven't changed much, you know? (LAUGH) Same spirit.
J. Cave: We're--
Mohyeldin: Which is a little older, a little heavier, a little grayer.
J. Cave: A little bit of gray hairs.
Mohyeldin: We were sitting in Lonna and Justin's office. And as their two daughters, Lorelei (PH) and Annaleigh (PH), play nearby, we're looking at old photos and talking about Roseanne.
L. Cave: She was a really awesome person, you know? She was always crackin' jokes. She was always the first one to say, "I love you," like, to my aunts, and cousins, and everything. She was my dad's best friend. And they would go fishing, and metal detecting, and rock hounding, and RV trips. All kinds of stuff. So that was, like, his fishing buddy, best friend. And she growing up was, like, really stubborn. We just goofed around a lot and we were crazy. So yeah, that's just the kind of person that she was.
Mohyeldin: Tell me about this picture.
L. Cave: So that is Roseanne. That was probably her favorite photo growing up. She's standing, doin' her arms up in the air, wearing a bikini on the beach. She said that's probably the last time that she wore a bikini on the beach. And she's, like, seven or nine or something.
Because then she started gettin' a little bit chubby. She was like, "I look so skinny in that picture." So it was her favorite one. There's a picture over here of me and Roseanne with the girls at the wedding. (MUSIC) So there was a hurricane that came through town.
So half the people didn't show up to the wedding. The wind was, like, blowing 100 miles an hour, it was raining. I didn't get to do my grand walk down. My dad had to drive me in his truck. And I forgot my bouquet. So Roseanne's like, "Where's it at?"
And I was like, "I don't know." So she had to run back up to the cabin where I was getting ready and go grab it for me. She would drop everything to help people. She didn't really, like, put herself first, ever. It still is hard for me to look at the pictures 'cause I miss her so much.
And, like, Annaleigh was saying the other day, "I just want to hold Ro-Ro. I just want to be able to squeeze her and hug her." She's a big cuddler, Annaleigh is, so I that's kinda how I feel. Whenever I look at the pictures it's, like, just this hole, almost. But it's hard to explain.
Mohyeldin: Take me back to January the 6th, that day. How did you guys find out about Roseanne?
J. Cave: I was at work and I remember I came home a little bit early. Lonna was really concerned, like, really upset.
Mohyeldin: Lonna's an administrator at a small event decoration business, where her boss always has the TV on Fox News.
Archival Recording: Trump rally goers continue to make their way up to the Capitol in this protest.
L. Cave: (BACKGROUND VOICE) It was playing in the background and so I'm sitting there, you know, doing work stuff, answering emails, making quotes. And I hear Trump on there talking about, you know, "Let's march to the Capitol," you know, blah, blah, blah.
Trump: Our country has had enough. We will not take it anymore. And that's (APPLAUSE) what this is all about.
Mohyeldin: She knew her sister had gone to D.C. for the "Save America" march, but she didn't know a lot about it. (BACKGROUND VOICE) She texted Roseanne but hadn't heard much back. And what she was seeing Trump say on TV was stressing her out.
Trump: We will never give up. We will never concede. It doesn't happen. (APPLAUSE) You don't concede when there's theft involved.
L. Cave: He's like, you know, gettin' everybody hyped up. And I was like, "What the fuck," you know? And then my coworker, Alisha (PH), was like, "Are you worried." I'm like, "Yeah, I'm worried. It's, like, gonna turn into something bad." And that's when I left work. I was like, "I gotta go." Like, I'm not gonna do any work because I'm just thinking the worst. So I went home 'cause I was like, "Oh, let me get home before traffic gets bad."
Mohyeldin: Meanwhile, Lonna's father, Bret Boyland, was at his house watching the coverage of Trump's speech too. He'd also exchanged a few texts with his daughter, Roseanne, and the friend she had gone up with, a guy he hadn't met named Justin Winchell.
Bret Boyland: The night they met to drive up, he had sent me a message from his phone somewhere around midnight sayin', "This is Justin. This is my number. I'm ridin' up with Roseanne. In case you have any trouble gettin' a hold of her through her phone, you got my number, too." So that day I'd sent some messages back and forth to both of 'em.
Mohyeldin: Here, Bret pulls out his phone.
Br. Boyland: This is the very first one, where he was textin' me on their way up there. So you're welcome to breeze through all of it. That's fine.
Mohyeldin: The first message is from Winchell at 12:48 a.m. on the 6th. He says, "Hi Bret, this is Justin. I'm going to D.C. with Roseanne. If you can't reach her, I'm available forcontact. Hope you're having a great night. America will prevail." And then an American flag emoji, a heart emoji, and a trophy emoji. About 12 hours later, around noon on the 6th, Bret texted Winchell back.
Br. Boyland: You know, we were at home that day. I was watchin' some of that (BACKGROUND VOICE) coverage on TV.
Trump: All of us here today do not want to see our election victory stolen by a bold--
Br. Boyland: So I would send them a message either showin' this, you know, part of the speech. You know, "Are you up there near the stage?" And, you know, they'd kinda tell me where they were.
Mohyeldin: Where they were was in the heart of the crowd, now moving East from the White House towards the Capitol. Justin texted, "We are heading to the Capitol building with the masses of patriots. Hope you are having a great one. We are doing you proud."
For a while, everything seemed fine. Justin sent a selfie of Roseanne and him smiling, Roseanne wearing American flag sunglasses. And then a photo of Roseanne with a yellow flag over her shoulder that said, "Don't tread on me." (MUSIC) But soon enough, Bret could tell that things were taking a turn.
Archival Recording: This was clearly (YELLING) a very severe injury.
Br. Boyland: When they were showin' the real crazy stuff happenin' on TV, I kinda told them that, you know, "You guys probably should leave and go do some sightseein', or somethin'."
Mohyeldin: Bret was trying to be lighthearted. But he was getting increasingly worried. He sent a couple more messages. "6:00 p.m. curfew. Better get out shortly," he wrote at about 4:00 p.m. And then, "Let us know what's happening." But he didn't get a response. Later that day, Justin Cave found his wife glued to the TV (BACKGROUND VOICE) in a state of near panic.
Archival Recording: It's also an incident that has turned certainly violent, Chuck.
Mohyeldin: Lonna had been trying to call Roseanne, (BACKGROUND VOICE) but no one was answering.
J. Cave: It was looking really bad on TV, you know, the whole riot scene. And all of a sudden they said one person had died, and then another person had died. And Lonna was hysterical. And she's like, "It's Roseanne. I know it's Roseanne." And I was like, "You know, it's not Roseanne. There's a lotta people there. Just relax." (MUSIC)
Mohyeldin: But Lonna couldn't shake the feeling that one of the people who had died at the Capitol was her sister. At 5:30 p.m., she decided to send one more message to Roseanne.
L. Cave: I texted her, "You all good?" And I didn't ever hear anything back. I just knew, because Roseanne always answers the phone. She's not an irresponsible person. Like, that's one thing that Roseanne would always check in. You know, anytime she did anything, she was always calling my parents. She was always checking in because she didn't want them to worry. And so I just knew it was her. Just in my core, in my being.
Mohyeldin: What Lonna didn't know was that around 4:30 p.m., her dad had finally gotten a response from Justin Winchell.
Br. Boyland: He sent me a message back that said, "Please call me. I need to talk to you about Roseanne. She's been hurt." And so I called and talked to him. He said that she had gotten in the big crowd and she'd gotten knocked down with a bunch of other people, a bunch of other people fell on top of her.
She was trapped under some people and couldn't breathe and lost consciousness, you know, at that point with people layin' on top of her. And he said he had kinda held onto her hand. He pulled a couple people off of her. And he said a couple of the protesters who, I guess, were CPR-trained, you know, they were attempting CPR on her. They carried her up to the entryway there at the police line. And later found out, you know, that the police had carried her inside and tried CPR also.
Mohyeldin: But Winchell didn't know what had happened after that. So Roseanne's mother, Cheryl, decided to take charge.
Cheryl Boyland: I called every fire department and hospital, emergency room in the whole metro D.C. area. Every one. And they all insisted she wasn't there.
Mohyeldin: Finally, a little before midnight, she got a call back.
C. Boyland: A policeman called me, 'cause I'd called several police departments. And he said, "I believe we have your daughter." So I thought maybe she'd been arrested at first. But when he said, "Does she have a tattoo," then I knew she was dead right then.
L. Cave: My mom called me at midnight. And anytime your parentcalls you after 10:00 or 11:00, it's not good. She just said, "Roseanne's dead." And I was like, "No, no, no, no, no." (MUSIC)
Mohyeldin: Lonna and Justin were up all night crying in disbelief. But morning brought an awful new problem. The grieving family was going to have to deal with the press, which was now starting to gather at Roseanne's parents' house.
C. Boyland: Lonna's husband sent her a message or called her, whatever, sayin', "They just released Roseanne's name." And then immediately our phone rang and it was a news agency, like, not even 30 seconds after the woman had just told us that she hadn't officially been identified. I had my husband go get our no trespassing sign we had from the pool in the backyard (LAUGH) and put it on the mailbox.
Br. Boyland: It slowed it down, so they just parked--
C. Boyland: And we--
Br. Boyland: --down the road.
C. Boyland: --unplugged but all the house phones. And they haven't been plugged back in since then.
Mohyeldin: But the media interest was just too intense. And as the day went on, a crowd of reporters assembled outside. Cheryl and Bret were overwhelmed, so Lonna and Justin headed over for moral support. Justin, who had actually done a few stints as a TV host, thought he knew how to help. (MUSIC)
J. Cave: They wanted a statement and this and that. And they weren't goin' away, so I prepared a written statement and read it for everybody that was in the front yard.
Mohyeldin: But then, Justin decided to go off script.
Mohyeldin: Pretty bold for you to say that?
J. Cave: Yeah, you know, it was shortly thereafter that we started getting threats. (MUSIC)
J. Cave (archival): As we watched these awful events unfold, we hoped that Roseanne was not among the crowd.
Mohyeldin: On January 7th, Justin Cave stepped in front of the cameras gathered in front of his in-laws' house.
J. Cave (archival): We have little information at this time and we're waiting with the rest of the world to uncover the specifics. Our family is grieving on every level for our country and for the families that have lost a loved one or suffered injuries, and for our own loss. We appreciate your prayers and ask for everyone to respect our family's privacy as mourn a death.
Mohyeldin: Justin's written statement was polished and professional. But as he spoke, his anger seemed to get the betterof him.
J. Cave: This is where I came off my prepared statement. And I said, "On a personal note."
J. Cave (archival): It's my own personal belief that the president's words incited a riot that killed four of his biggest fans last night, and I believe that we should invoke the 25th Amendment at this time.
J. Cave: I'd never been a political person and for years I've had to listen to everybody else's political opinion. And I think subconsciously, ultimately, I made the decision to make mine.
Archival Recording: A passionate plea there, not mincing words, that brother-in-law. This family very upset tonight.
Archival Recording: Boyland's brother-in-law acknowledged his sister-in-law was passionate about her beliefs, rebuking the president's actions.
Archival Recording: You'll hear much more from this grieving family coming up in the next hour at 6:00. For now, I am live in Kennesaw, Megan (PH)--
Mohyeldin: Justin's moment of improv got tons of coverage. And people in the largely conservative town of Kennesaw heard the accusation in his words, that what happened on January 6th rested solely on the shoulders of the president. And they responded.
J. Cave: The week this happened my mother and my stepfather had their vehicles broken into and their American flag snapped off the flagpole at their house. Lonna's dad was getting letters like, "Here's some roses for your dead redneck daughter's casket." We got a lotta calls, social media, you know, "Auntie Ro-Ro is flat flat."
Mohyeldin: But what ultimately got to Justin the most were the attacks he got from his friends.
Mohyeldin: Did what you say cost you any relationships?
J. Cave: Yeah, I had a big problem with a coworker the following morning after this happened. You know, we're not friends anymore.
L. Cave: You know, he comes from quite the conservative family and friend group, because he's, you know, a white male living in Georgia who has a beard and, you know, hunts and all that stuff. So most of his family and friends were pissed at him. And so that was a real rude awakening for him to realize that, hey, we don't live in a perfect bubble, you know? He was just living in this, like, white male privileged life, not realizing that, like, real-life shit happens.
J. Cave: The weeks and months after this, I couldn't go back to work. I didn't leave my house for a month.
Mohyeldin: Why?
J. Cave: I don't know. I went through some very intense paranoia that I can't really explain. But it was very unhealthy. Very unhealthy. You know, we got a package one day and I ended up yellin' at Lonna and the girls 'cause I thought it was a bomb. And I went out in the driveway by myself and opened it, and it was not. It was somethin' she ordered from Amazon. And then I cried. Which then I'm like, "This is not healthy, you know? This is not normal."
Mohyeldin: Justin started making voice recordings for us, check-ins about what he was going through and what had happened on a given day.
J. Cave (archival): So here we go. I want you to know something about me. I have a very busy mind. I talk to myself a lot. Like, out loud or under my breath. Lonna pulled me aside last night and was really upset again because I'm not present. My kids will be talking to me and they're like, "Dada, dada."
And they'll both say it 20 times, and I'm sittin' right there, and I'm just not listening. I'm not present and I'm more focused on my anger. I want to give you the definition of depression. A simple definition is depression's a constant feeling of sadness and loss of interest, which stops you from doing your normal activities.
And I think that I'm suffering from it. You know, what I haven't told anybody is I cry, like, 20 times a day. Like, I don't think it's healthy. It's 2:00 in the morning here. I'm gonna try to go to bed and get some sleep. Have a good night, bye. (MUSIC)
Mohyeldin: It didn't help that the family was now coming under attack from both sides of the political spectrum. On the one hand were the people who thought Justin had betrayed the Trump cause. On the other hand were the people who thought Roseanne and the other rioters were lawless insurrectionists who deserved what they got.
L. Cave: You know, she was being used as such a political football. And it's like, nobody really gives a shit about her as a person. Like, you know, but her family and friends do. And for her to be treated like that by the people that were around her, by the media, but all the assholes on Twitter that don't even know her, like, it's a shitty way for anyone to go and to be remembered.
Mohyeldin: It bothers you how she was remembered.
L. Cave: Yeah. 'Cause that's not the person that she was. And she was, like, the nicest person that I knew. And, like, just genuinely cared about you and genuinely cared about how you were doing and, you know, what was going on in your life, and how could she help you and all that stuff. Like, most people, you know, they'll say, "Hey, can I do somethin' for you?" But they don't really mean it. They're hoping that you say no, you know? Whereas she was hoping that you said yes, because she really did want to help you.
Mohyeldin: But the reality is that version of Roseanne left out a key twist. In the last six months of her life, Roseanne Boyland had become a completely different person.
Mohyeldin: For most of her adulthood, Roseanne lived in the same house she grew up in, a small place on Knightsbridge Road with her parents, Bret and Cheryl. She had dreamed of becoming a doctor. But while she had held down a few odd jobs here and there, she could never really get a career going.
That was largely because of her history with drugs, a problem that had started back in high school. But Roseanne had stopped using seven years earlier in 2014. And so she and her parents had entered into this kind of steady equilibrium. Bret and Cheryl supported their daughter financially.
And in return, Roseanne went to AA meetings where she worked hard on her sobriety. And for the most part, it worked. Roseanne stayed clean, spent her days doing things she liked, like listening to alternative bands, collecting knickknacks, making friends with people in the recovery community. The Boylands were happy. But then Roseanne started doing things out of character. One day she asked her dad if she could watch Fox News with him. This was in the summer of 2020.
Br. Boyland: That is probably the first time she had ever shown any kinda interest in any politics. It got to where she would come in and specifically ask if I was gonna watch certain shows on TV. There was, you know, a lot of stuff on Fox News. She was askin' if I was gonna watch, you know, this, that, or the other episode. And she'd specifically say she wanted to come in and watch, or say she wanted to record it. Which, you know, that was a surprise to me.
Mohyeldin: Specifically, Bret says that she started showing an interest in President Trump. And that was particularly odd because just weeks earlier, weeks, not months, Roseanne had been ripping him.
L. Cave: She would send, like, memes of, you know, how he stands with his butt out. And all the memes that make fun of him she would share on the little family Instagram thing. It was always a good chuckle.
Mohyeldin: What Lonna's talking about is Roseanne's activity on the family group chat, where Roseanne would send dozens of memes that made fun of Donald Trump. Roseanne's little sister, Blair Boyland, says the same thing. That for the first half of 2020, it really seemed like Roseanne was, if anything, anti Trump.
Blair Boyland: We didn't really have any deep conversations about him. But just kind of the, you know, cultural zeitgeist of just sharing jokes about him and stuff. And I remember one specific story from Roseanne's friend, she had mentioned there was a, like, Facebook group that the high school, some kind of, like, Trump supporter group. And she had made a joke to Roseanne like, "Oh, I'm gonna add you to the Trump group." And Roseanne was like, "Oh my god, don't do that," you know, kinda reaction.
Mohyeldin: (BACKGROUND VOICE) My producer, Preeti Varathan, who traveled to Georgia with me, jumped in.
Preeti Varathan: It sounds like at around the six-month mark prior to her death, something sort of shifted and changed.
Bl. Boyland: Uh-huh (AFFIRM).
Varathan: Do you mind telling me a little bit about that? How did you experience that?
Bl. Boyland: So it kinda just felt like it just all the sudden happened really quickly. So actually, I was looking at this last night. (LAUGH) Kinda crazy enough, it's the first time I really went on Roseanne's Instagram in a long time, just to kinda see where I felt things kinda started changing.
So this one she posted in July 29th, and it's basically just, like, a screenshot of someone's tweet. And it's saying, "Crazy how the internet cannot eliminate child pornography, the root demand for child trafficking, but can censor, block, and delete all conspiracy theories and facts."
Mohyeldin: Roseanne had put quotes around the words "conspiracy theories."
Bl. Boyland: And then literally, the following day she posted, "The fact that no news channel talks about child trafficking should concern everyone." July 30th is, hashtag, "#worlddayagainsthumantrafficking. I just wanted to let y'all know, since I find it strange to not see or hear anything about it."
Mohyeldin: Soon, Roseanne was posting about conspiracy theories incessantly. And most of them included the same element: People praying on kids. They were so startling, even Lonna's friends took notice.
L. Cave: They were asking me, like, "Hey, is everything okay with her? She's posting all those crazy, off-the-wall posts." And I'm like, "Yeah, yeah, yeah. She's fine. You know, she's just looking into these conspiracy theories. It's fine." But clearly she was not fine.
Varathan: They were worried because they saw what she was posting on Facebook?
Bl. Boyland: Yeah. And it was, like, a lot. Like, not just, like, she would post something weird off the wall. It would be, like, ten times a day. It was, like, an obsession. (MUSIC)
Mohyeldin: Not long after Roseanne's death, it started to become clear that she had fallen for the sprawling conspiracy movement known as QAnon. You probably know a fair amount about it by now. But just in brief, QAnon followers believe that top Democrats and Hollywood figures are part of a secret group of Satan-worshiping pedophiles who Donald Trump was fighting to defeat. At this point, though, Lonna still didn't know what QAnon was. But Blair did. She'd seen people talking about it on Reddit, and she was concerned.
Bl. Boyland: So I just started to get worried, just because I know Roseanne can become, like, obsessive about stuff. So I was just worried about that on a certain level. And I did talk to Lonna about it and also my mom. Just kind of told them, like, I remember talking to both of them individually, just saying, "Hey, do you know what QAnon is? I think this is something Roseanne's getting into from what I've seen." Just some of the hashtags, but I was--
Mohyeldin: She didn't know how how serious this was going to be.
Bl. Boyland: Yeah, no. For sure. None of us did.
Mohyeldin: It wasn't until Christmas that the family realized just how much she changed.
Mohyeldin: That's a video of the Boyland Family Christmas celebration, which for the past few years had been at Justin and Lonna's house. Lonna's parents, Roseanne, and Blair would usually arrive in the early afternoon and almost immediately, Roseanne would start taking pictures. She'd capture the food, the stockings. But mostly her attention would be on Lonna's daughters. In fact, one of the only surviving videos of Roseanne is of her playing with them.
Mohyeldin: She wanted every day for these girls to be special, even simple school days.
L. Cave: Instead of asking, "How was your day," she would pick different questions to ask. Like, "What did you do nice for someone today?" Or, "What was something that made you laugh today?" Or, you know, something more special and meaningful than just, "How was your day".
Mohyeldin: So when Roseanne arrived at Lonna's house on Christmas that year, she expected her to rush through the door and offer to play with the girls. But that isn't what happened.
Bl. Boyland: She just kinda sat on the couch and was on her phone most of the time. And just kinda looked, like, kind of annoyed that she had to be here, you know? Kinda like she wanted to be somewhere else kind of vibe.
L. Cave: She was not present. She would be in the room, but Roseanne was never really there.
Mohyeldin: The way Lonna remembers it, Roseanne barely spoke to her girls, or anyone else, for that matter. She sat on the couch sulking, quiet, scrolling through her phone.
L. Cave: Everybody's opening up presents and she's just sitting there texting people, looking at whatever. And she left all of her Christmas presents here. That's how, like, not present she was. She was probably already planning her trip up to Washington, D.C. at that point. Whatever she was involved with was consuming her.
Mohyeldin: (MUSIC) In the weeks after Roseanne's death, Justin told people, "Trump killed her." Blair said it was QAnon. But Lonna found herself fixating on one question: Who was it that Roseanne had been texting with at Christmas?
L. Cave: She pretty much cut out all of the family and friends, but she was always talking to somebody. So I think that's why we wanna know so bad who it was that she had spent those last six months with.
Mohyeldin: Lonna had someone in mind, the guy Roseanne went to the Capitol with. No one really knew him. Bret and Cheryl had never met him. Lonna and Justin hadn't even heard his name until after Roseanne died. But for all of them, that name was about to become an obsession: Justin Winchell.
Mohyeldin: Next time on American Radical:
Justin Winchell: I knew I was getting somethin' that nobody else in the market would have.
Winchell: Last name Winchell, W-I-N-C-H-E, double L.
Winchell (archival): And the Capitol police hit her once in the face, I was like, "I think she's dead. I think she's dead." And I'm screamin' this.
Mohyeldin: Do you have any idea where he is now?
J. Cave: He's nowhere to be found. And I have no idea where he could be.
Mohyeldin: Clickin' through the names here, I'm trying to see if I can find "Winchell" on the thing.
L. Cave: Winchell.
J. Cave: It's Justin Winchell.
Mohyeldin: From MSNBC, this is episode one of five of American Radical. This series was reported and produced by Preeti Varathan, with Eva Ruth Moravec and Ursula Sommer. Additional production help from Abe Selby, and Olivia Richard. Original music by Brian Robertson and MJ Hancock. Sound design by Rick Kwan. Bryson Barnes is our technical director. Reid Cherlin is our executive producer. Madeleine Haeringer is our head of editorial.