Many of your favorite MSNBC hosts gathered recently at an annual fan event to talk about the future of the Democratic party and democracy itself. Jen teamed up with Rachel Maddow to tackle tough and thoughtful questions from audience members including how to cut through all the political noise and how to understand how we got here. Jen also interviewed the cohosts of the wildly popular “I’ve Had It” podcast, Angie “Pumps” Sullivan and Jennifer Welch. Their irreverent hot takes on the current state of our politics often go viral, and they didn’t hold back in their conversation with Jen. This is the Blueprint, live from MSNBCLIVE ‘25.
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Note: This is a rough transcript. Please excuse any typos.
Jen Psaki: Hi, this is Jen Psaki, and this is “The Blueprint”. So, we had an event this weekend in New York City where I joined Rachel Maddow and Symone Sanders-Townsend, Alicia Menendez, and Lawrence O’Donnell and many other MSNBC hosts you know well. And at that event, I interviewed the co-host of the podcast, “I’ve Had It”. You’ll hear that a little bit later.
But first, I want to share a conversation I had with Rachel Maddow at a dinner hosted by Luke Russert. So, here is “The Blueprint” live from MSNBC Fan Fest 25. We started the conversation with a question from Frank Pawlak of Chicago.
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Frank Pawlak: First of all, thank you both for the incredible work you’ve done and continue to do, you provide support and encouragement to everybody here and millions more, and you know that. Thanks.
Jen Psaki: We’re both going to cry now.
Frank Pawlak: Well, here it goes, I had the privilege at last year’s MSNBC convention dinner to ask you both how given all the political noise that was going on at that time, how you determined what issue you would focus on, on any given news day. Well, over the last nine months, the noise has changed, it’s gotten louder and nearly unbearable.
My question to both of you is how, if at all, have you changed your approach in sorting through the sludge of a news cycle and what considerations you take into account now to probably prioritize what issues are worthy of political commentary?
Jen Psaki: That’s a great question. It’s great to see you again. I would say first, I’m the child of a therapist so I am in a constant state of self-reflection. And it’s a healthy thing to be just like it’s healthy to cry.
And I have thought a lot about, unless I could just speak for myself, after the election last November, whether I was talking about and providing a platform for and shedding light on the right things.
And I think there was too much time for me spent navel-gazing at how bad Trump was and talking about how bad Trump was and having people on who talked about how bad Trump was. I’m not saying that’s their fault, it just became the totality of the discussion.
And where I have really self-reflected is really thinking about people who are in the arena, who are really doing something about it. So, what are you doing about it? What are you doing to fight back on people who are disappearing people on the streets of our nation’s cities, right? What are you doing about the fact that you feel frustrated that they’re not extending healthcare subsidies to millions of Americans as they should?
And so the prism for me is part that, and I’ve thought a lot about not allowing, even when politicians come on and say, well, Trump is terrible and he is a horror show. It’s like, okay, well, you have a platform, what are you doing about it? What power do you have and what levers of power you can use? That’s one.
The other part, I’ve really gotten comfortable with my nerdy knowledge of how government functions, which I think is very important to understand and talk about right now. And what is normal? Thank you. We love all the nerds in this room.
What is normal? What is not normal? The things that they are trying to do that don’t seem important, but are important, like firing inspectors general, like not allowing whistleblowers to post their complaints through Web sites, which is something they did this week.
So, I’ve gotten real comfortable in my nerdiness, and that took some self-reflection, but those are some of mine, but what about you?
Rachel Maddow: I love the governance part of it too, because I do feel like we have devalued the idea of serving in Congress.
We’ve devalued the idea of making legislation. We’ve devalued the idea of serving in government agencies, particularly Washington-based government agencies, like, we, I think, as Americans, it’s not just been a project of the right. I think a lot of us have allowed ourselves to let our respect for the mechanics of our democracy erode a little bit.
And that’s wrong because our democracy actually is for all its faults, it’s what we’ve got and it’s the best system in the world and it’s fragile and we have to stand up for it, and that means even standing up for Congress.
Frank Pawlak: I know.
Rachel Maddow: It’s terrible. But so sort of relearning governance I think right now and what’s not perfect about it, but why it’s better to have it than not is one of the things I’ve been learning from your show, and I’ve been trying to think in those lines. And actually, similarly, I’ve been trying to shift my gaze. I know what Trump wants to do and I think I know a lot about how he wants to do it. I don’t think there’s much mystery there. With a translation app, you can just watch it happen in any of the other countries where this has happened in the last a hundred years, right?
The last century has been the story of democracies turning into authoritarian or falling to authoritarian movements and leaders. We know what they all want to do. So, therefore, it’s not news.
What’s news is what our country is going to do about it. What’s news is how our country is going to respond. What’s news is how our country is going to stand up for the democracy that we all say we don’t want to lose.
And so, that’s the story. Trump is the background, but the actual action is us, and that’s how I try to focus every day.
Luke Russert: All right, next, we have a question from Jacob Lax from Raleigh, North Carolina. Jacob?
Jacob Lax: All right, thank you. So, to both of you, Rachel, you often place current events in a longer historical arc, and, Jen, your work focused on communicating policy as it unfolded in real-time.
So, I’m curious how each of you thinks about time in your own work. The tension between helping people react to what’s going on right now and helping them to understand how we got here.
Rachel Maddow: I think of time as being a little bit interchangeable with place, in the sense that I think sometimes it’s hard to recognize the situation that you are personally in at that moment.
And so, sometimes the reason that I will use a historical analogy is it is definitely something that we weren’t all there for. So, if I’m talking about something that happened in the 1800s or I start talking about something that happened in some other, you know, previous, multiple generations, you have to get outside yourself a little bit to see that. And then that can sometimes help us recognize the parallels for today or recognize the model of heroism or the particular threats or some other analogy that I think is helpful.
It’s also sometimes true that it could be something that’s contemporaneous, but it’s happening in Poland or it’s happening in New Zealand or it’s happening in West Africa somewhere. It’s just the way that my own brain works. I sometimes need to get outside myself to see it through different eyes, and either time or place or some other variable like that helps me do it.
Jen Psaki: Everybody’s mind doesn’t work the way Rachel Maddow’s mind works because everybody --
Rachel Maddow: Thank goodness.
Jen Psaki: -- know this, you know, my mind does not work in the same way. And I often think much more about present day’ish, right, the last 20 to 30 years in politics and government and what I’ve lived and experienced and what moments tell us about what is normal, what is not normal?
Sometimes it is. I’ve probably shown more clips of John Boehner, cause this is the world we’re living in now, and how people behave from other parties or in working together to reopen the government or in response to a mass shooting or things like that than I ever would’ve predicted.
Rachel Maddow: And also, I mean, doing a show just weekly rather than doing a show every night, I have to think about time in terms of, am I talking to you about what’s happened in the last week or am I talking to you about what’s happened in the last day or am I talking to you about what might have happened since the last show started? You know, that’s something that you just have to juggle every night based on the imperatives of the moment, I think.
Luke Russert: We have Madeliene Bolden from Savannah, Georgia.
Madeliene Bolden: Good evening, Miss Maddow and Miss Psaki.
Rachel Maddow: Good evening.
Jen Psaki: Good evening. We can be on a first name basis, Madeliene, I hope.
Madeliene Bolden: Empathy is being attacked in today’s society. Do you think empathy can survive in journalism without being seen as a weakness?
Luke Russert: Great.
Jen Psaki: I love this question. Before I was at MSNBC, I worked with journalists, of course, in communications and media for 20 years. And what I found were some of the best journalists had tremendous empathy for humans and people and what they were experiencing in events in the world.
And I was at the State’s Department for a couple of years, and the reporters and journalists there, hard-hitting, tough, really smart, they covered those issues because they cared about global movements and they cared about peace deals and they cared about negotiations and they cared about ending wars. And that’s what made them great journalists.
So, I would say, I think empathy is a strength, empathy is a superpower, empathy allows you to connect and really digest things in a way that is different from robotically repeating things on television. That’s not what any of us do. So, that’s how I see it. But you’re going to say something wiser than me and I’m here for it.
Rachel Maddow: No, no.
Jen Psaki: Let’s hear it.
Rachel Maddow: No, just to underscore what you said, I think that you can’t tell a good story without empathy ‘cause otherwise I mean, I don’t have a parent who’s a therapist and so maybe people hearing stories about themselves is a helpful thing in therapy, I don’t know. But otherwise, every story, by definition, is asking you to leave your own mind and your own experience and imagine or embody somebody else’s.
And storytelling, I agree with Ken Burns on this, the great documentarian, stories are what changes the world and stories are indeed what explains the world. And there is not a story, again, outside of potentially a therapeutic context that’s about you, it’s always about imagining or seeing something else.
And so, I think it’s the core of what it is not only to be human and have love in your life and have, you know, moral relationships with people who you care for. I think it’s the absolute core of what we do in terms of talking about the world. But thank you for the question.
Jen Psaki: Yeah.
Rachel Maddow: It’s beautifully phrased too as well. Thank you.
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Jen Psaki: We’re going to take a quick break here, but when we come back, more from me and Rachel and the audience at MSNBC Fan Fest Live 25.
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Luke Russert: Alrighty, we have here Mary Jean White from Aston, Pennsylvania. Mary Jean?
Rachel Maddow: Hi, Mary Jean. Hello.
Jen Psaki: Hi, Mary Jean.
Mary Jean White: Delco (sp?). So, for both of you, what do you see as the biggest challenge in helping the public understand accountability and how it works, how oversight works and how important your role is and our role is?
You mentioned earlier about the I.G. Web sites going down, right? So, the fourth state, you all are all we have left. How do you translate that to folks to have them understand how important it is to understand what oversight is and how it is important that we have it and how we don’t have it now? How can we make that real for people when they’re sitting in their kitchen and talking to each other after they turn off your show or before they go to bed? So, how do you do that every day?
Rachel Maddow: I have one small point, but I’m interested in your take on this. I mean, I would say, I think that whether or not you are conservative or liberal or engaged or apathetic, I think the idea that it’s better to know than to not know is a pretty human thing.
That even if we enjoy escapism, even if a lot of us turned off the news once the news started going in a direction we didn’t like, in general, I think it’s better to know than to not know.
And one of the great assists that we’ve got from this administration in particular on convincing people that it’s better to know than to not know, that you’d better pay attention, you better have some way to find out what’s happening rather than leaving them to their own devices is that they keep robbing all of us blind.
Donald Trump making billions of dollars in less than a year since he’s been back in office is something that means something to people because they know they’re having their pockets picked. And so, is it better for us to know that that’s happening or just to close our eyes and pretend it’s not?
And I think there is something instinctual in not just the American people but in people generally to know that, you’d rather not be blindsided. And I think people know instinctively that there’s a lot going on that is self-dealing and I think people are reflexively repulsed by that and want to know about it. And so, that’s a good way to talk about, well, how will we know about it?
There’s no inspectors general, the FBI’s instead chasing all the President’s political enemies, it’s the free press, right, that’s how we’re going to know. And that’s a pretty straightforward argument, I think, particularly in an era of really blatant self-dealing and corruption.
Jen Psaki: I will tell you the thing that worries me is the things that we don’t know, right, and that it’s hard to know. The inspector generals is an example because it’s like, what would they be investigating right now? We don’t know. It’s kind of an unknowable. The FBI, it’s not just Kash Patel’s hawking of weird goods and doing what he’s doing, it’s also the firing of very qualified FBI officials across the country. What threats are they not looking after, what threats are they not following?
And I will say like a personal one that I’m concerned about, and then I will get to a positive point, ‘cause I think that’s the point here, is the press briefing room, which may sound like a small thing, it is a big thing.
And what I worry about is it’s very hard to understand what’s happening in there unless you’ve lived in that room and been the press secretary or a staffer and a reporter. And there are still some very excellent reporters, hard-hitting, tough smart reporters in there, but slowly but surely, they’re reshaping the people who get questions and the people who fill that room into people who are sycophants for the administration.
And if you look at the press briefing, and I do more than most people probably because we do a little shtick on our show about it, you see that, you know, some days it’s maybe a third of the questions, some days it’s half, sometimes it’s 15 percent. And there are questions like, and this is literally one once, President Trump looks like he’s in such good shape, I want to know what his health regimen is, right?
And, you know, that’s funny, but there’s also some that are serious, right? And I’m concerned about that because that shapes the public’s perception of what the media is. And most people don’t know how to differentiate Benny Johnson from other people in the room. Okay, so those are my concerns.
What I think is a powerful thing, is the most powerful tool of information is all of you and individuals and people. People trust their neighbors, they trust people in their community, they trust people they know more than they trust any of the institutions, I mean, government, media, anyone.
So, what I think about a lot is how can we provide a couple of pieces of information that are digestible and warning signs so that you can end the show and be like, you know what’s weird? There’s eight reporters in that briefing room who got questions who are propagandist, right? That’s something that should concern anyone.
But I think part of it is people needing to feel empowered themselves to share the story of what’s happening right now, take the information they have and pass it along, which is happening, and that is a plus of social media platforms, I would, say that have many negatives, but that’s a plus of them.
Luke Russert: All right.
Rachel Maddow: Luke, do one more. I know we’re supposed to be done. Can we just do one more?
Luke Russert: Okay. Rachel wants to do one.
Rachel Maddow: I’m sorry.
Luke Russert: Then you can pick someone from the crowd, Rachel.
Jen Psaki: Oh, yeah, go ahead.
Rachel Maddow: Oh, okay. You’re right up here close, use my microphone. Sorry, that was me.
Barbara: Hi, thank you so much. I’m here from Florida and I would just like to thank you for showing all of the film clips you have showed from across the nation in tiny little red places (APPLAUSE) to show us that we are not alone. And that has made such a difference. And I think one of the things we all need to do right now is be in community.
Rachel Maddow: Yeah.
Barbara: And that is helping so much. So, thank you.
Rachel Maddow: What’s your name?
Barbara: Barbara.
Rachel Maddow: Barbara.
Barbara: Thank you.
Rachel Maddow: Thank you so much.
Barbara: Thank you.
Rachel Maddow: You know, let’s just finish with that. That being in community thing is for real. And what you just said about social media and sharing things that are things that you understand that you think other people should understand, that’s for real. But there is something about being in a physical place with other people where you can look them in the eyes.
And that’s why I said, make sure you meet somebody here tonight who you didn’t know before you got here. There is something about in real-life communication, eyeball-to-eyeball, talking with people about how you are feeling and what you guys might be able to do together, what you might be able to share the burden of in terms of what you think needs to happen in the country.
And if you haven’t, I don’t care what you join, but if you haven’t joined something since we’ve entered into an authoritarian era in American politics, this is a time to join something. And again, it can be a Zumba class, it’s fine. It can be anything where you’re meeting in real-life offline with other human beings with whom you can make common cause or at least share your humanity.
Part of the way an authoritarian works is that they stop us from seeing one another in any way that yields to solidarity. They keep us afraid of each other, they keep us angry at each other, they keep us atomized and depressed and not wanting to participate in things in our civic life because civic life seems alien or dangerous.
One of the things we can all do, no matter what your interests are, no matter what your skills are, is join something so that you are seeing people in real-life. And I would just encourage you to find that community where you can. Take inspiration from the fact that they really don’t want us to do it. Thank you, guys. Thank you, guys, so much.
Jen Psaki: Thank you, guys.
Luke Russert: Thank you.
Rachel Maddow: Thank you. Thank you, thank you, thank you.
Luke Russert: Rachel and Jen, thank you so much.
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Jen Psaki: Coming up next to my interview with the host of the “I’ve Had It” podcast live at MSNBC Fan Fest 25 in New York City.
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Jen Psaki: Before Jennifer Welch and Angie Pump Sullivan launched “I’ve Had It,” they once co-starred on the Bravo reality series, “Sweet Home Oklahoma,” kind of an interior design meets real housewives show.
Now, they have over a million subscribers on YouTube where fans watch the duo mix political commentary with pop culture. They’ve interviewed everybody from Barack Obama to David Hogg, to Roy Wood Junior, to Chelsea Handler. And then this weekend, I got to interview them on stage.
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Jen Psaki: All right. Hi, everyone. Okay. I’m going to sit right there.
Jennifer Welch: All right.
Jen Psaki: Okay.
Angie “Pumps” Sullivan: Yay.
Jen Psaki: We’re so excited to be here and doing this with all of you, guys. Have a seat. Now, if you have not heard of the “I’ve Had It” podcast, and I suspect most of you have, it is a part of my sole connection to all of the things that are happening in our world and how we need to respond to them, is a part of my weekly routine. I listen to it on the way home from work. I’m so thrilled to have you both here and we’re going to talk about all the things in a totally unfiltered way as everybody would expect, right? So, let’s do it.
Jennifer Welch: Thank you for having us.
Jen Psaki: Okay. Okay, so for those of you who aren’t familiar with these amazing ladies, we’ll do a little introduction so you know, a little bit about them. So let, let me just start. You, guys, have had your podcasts for a while. It didn’t start as a political podcast. We looked up what the topic of the first podcast episode was. Do you remember what it was?
Angie “Pumps” Sullivan: Yeah.
Jennifer Welch: Yeah.
Jen Psaki: So the topic was toddlers or assholes. That was the topic of their first episode. And I will say, my kids are 7 and 10, so they’re kind of out of the toddlers or assholes stage, although toddlers can be assholes so I can confirm that. But you’ve kind of evolved over time. It’s become more political. It’s very direct. Well, how did that evolution happen? Why did it happen?
Jennifer Welch: Well, I’ve always been a diehard political junkie. And she started getting more and more political during Trump 1.0. And I can’t help but talk about politics and I can’t help but speak up when I see injustice or racism or sexism or homophobia.
And so, in, you know, Trump, even when Biden was president, Trump was so omnipresent, you couldn’t help but get irritated, pissed off and want to just, you know, talk shit about it. And so, that’s what we do because it’s the only way that you can look at somebody and say, am I crazy or these people crazy, ‘cause I need to know what’s going on here? So, we started talking about it. And originally, a lot of people were, it was heartbreak hotel, two White women from Oklahoma City that were liberal.
Angie “Pumps” Sullivan: Yeah.
Jennifer Welch: I mean, it was --
Jen Psaki: It’s not an easy way to live.
Jennifer Welch: These people were so mad when they found out we weren’t MAGA, and that made us want to triple down or quadruple down, and we shed all the MAGA support and then we got the people who really love social justice, equality, democracy, and we build a community and we just like to talk shit.
Jen Psaki: We love it. Okay. One of the most interesting thing, I mean, you’re both from Oklahoma or you both have lived in Oklahoma, you just moved here though.
Jennifer Welch: I did.
Jen Psaki: Welcome to New York.
Jennifer Welch: Thank you.
Jen Psaki: Right? I mean, this is a great addition to the New York community. So, Angie, you come from a religious background, you grew up in a religious family. You talked about this a lot on the show.
It’s interesting because I think it helps listeners understand a different perspective and a different way people perceive things, which is really important in this moment. So, how has that shaped how you talk about politics or how you see events happening in the world right now?
Angie “Pumps” Sullivan: Well, I was raised super evangelical Christian. And what I think people don’t realize is how religiosity is baked into every single thing in Middle America, particularly rural America because they have church and they have their communities and it’s the same White people they’ve seen their whole lives.
So, for me, there was like a turning point in my life where I was like, all the things I’d been sold with my religion, I’m special, nothing bad could happen to me ‘cause I’m doing everything right and I’m better and I have this entitlement that makes me able to judge other people.
So, I had an awakening and kind of had to deconstruct all of that to realize that the faith I was brought up in was, in fact, not empathetic, it was not what I was taught that, you know, be nice to everybody. It was very judgmental and entitled.
So many people have reached out and said, we had that same upbringing, that their religion was not empathetic, it was mean and hateful and judgmental. And so, I just want to be a person that was inside of that, but now is able to say, that’s wrong, and I know why you’re thinking that, and it’s not okay.
Jen Psaki: Very well said. You do this amazing thing on your show that everybody who listens and watches knows where you talk about what you’ve had it with, hence the name of the show. So, I thought we could do a little round. It’s your thing, but it’s helpful for everybody. It’s a form of therapy, I will say, I think.
Angie “Pumps” Sullivan: Yes.
Jen Psaki: So, let me start by saying what I’ve had it with.
Angie “Pumps” Sullivan: Yeah.
Jen Psaki: I have had it with little Mike Johnson --
Angie “Pumps” Sullivan: Yeah.
Jen Psaki: -- who I will forever call him, and less little John Thune, he’s much taller, so he’s less little, little bigger, pretending they are powerless in this moment even though they’re the Speaker of the House, the second in line to the presidency and the Republican leader of the Senate, pretending they are powerless in this moment to end the shutdown, to make sure people of healthcare subsidies, to ensure earlier than today that military would be paid and to do all the things that they have the power to do, but they behave like they’re observers of everything happening in the world, even when they’ve created it. What have you had it with?
Angie “Pumps” Sullivan: There’s so many things. I am a lawyer, but I didn’t do like smart people law, I did divorce law. So, but I’ve had it with the Supreme Court because I revered, yeah.
Jen Psaki: A lot of people have had it with the Supreme Court here.
Angie “Pumps” Sullivan: Yeah.
Jen Psaki: There’s a contingent. I don’t know if these are lawyers, but there’s a standing ovation to this I’ve had it happening in the back, which kind of tells you something.
Angie “Pumps” Sullivan: Well.
Jen Psaki: This is a good I’ve had it.
Angie “Pumps” Sullivan: Well, it’s because, as a lawyer, I learned to revere them. They were above ethics, they were above personal decisions, conflict of interest. And I realized now they’re the most radicalized shilling for fascism. And everything I learned in law school was a lie, so I feel very betrayed by them and I feel like they’re complicit in what’s going on.
Jen Psaki: Yeah, that’s such a good point. I mean, I’ve been talking to my kids about things like the three branches of government and the traditions of them. I actually taught one of my daughter’s Girl Scout troops for a democracy badge and you’re explaining the three different parts of government and you’re thinking, there’s a modern version of this, but I’m not going to educate the fourth graders on it quite yet. Give me a few years.
Okay. I mean, part of the thing that’s so wonderful about this event and was wonderful last year is that it’s a community of people. Sometimes you’re meeting people for the first time. Sometimes you saw them last year. Sometimes you’re meeting somebody you’re sitting with and this is a safe place for stressing, griping, worrying, talking about the things that concern you.
But I’m a believer. We also need to have kind of moments of light in this moment and things that inspire us or not even inspire, and we’ll talk about that later, but things that are good, so let’s call out some good things. We will get to some griping ‘cause griping is a safe and happy thing to do in therapy sessions.
So, I’m going to start with a thing that I think the Democrats in Congress are doing well right now. I think this fight that they have picked over the extension of healthcare subsidies is the best fight that they have done and led and run the most effectively since Trump was elected. And I say that as someone who’s very critical of what they did in the spring.
Angie “Pumps” Sullivan: Yes.
Jen Psaki: Okay. I know ‘cause I am a listener, I know how you both feel about the Democratic leaders in the House and Senate, and we will have time to talk about that. Is there one thing they’re doing right now that you think is good?
Angie “Pumps” Sullivan: I have been so incredibly impressed with Robert Garcia.
Jen Psaki: Oh, that’s a good one.
Angie “Pumps” Sullivan: He has done such a good job in the leadership position that he has. He has been relentless about the Epstein files, even though I’m not convinced we’ll ever actually get them, but he will not let it die, and I really appreciate that. In the minority, he has done a great job.
Jen Psaki: This is a really good one.
Jennifer Welch: It’s a really good one.
Jen Psaki: Yeah, it’s a very good one also because for a long time, it was this theory that it didn’t matter who were the ranking members on committees and it really matters who the ranking members are --
Angie “Pumps” Sullivan: Yes.
Jen Psaki: -- on committees ‘cause Robert Garcia is not even the chairman of the committee. He’s the ranking member. He’s tireless and he is pushing like heck to get things done. Okay.
Jennifer Welch: Do you want me to say something positive?
Jen Psaki: Oh, you can add like a little --
Angie “Pumps” Sullivan: Try.
Jen Psaki: -- flavor of something.
Jennifer Welch: Chris --
Jen Psaki: Crisp and positive.
Jennifer Welch: We had Chris Murphy and --
Jen Psaki: Yeah.
Jennifer Welch: -- I think he’s excellent. And we had an Oklahoma City native Senator Elizabeth Warren, who’s one of my favorites. And when you’re speaking to politicians that aren’t beholden to corporations, you can tell because you can just ask them questions and they answer it very clearly, and both of them recently, you can just tell they’re speaking our language, they understand the fight they’re up against. So I really enjoy them.
Jen Psaki: Those are very good examples. I think, one of the conversations I had, the other episode of my new podcast is with Greg Casar, and he is a very impressive young, up and coming rising star.
And one of the things we were talking about was the fact that there sometimes is inaccurate description of what the dividing lines are to me and you reminded me of this. It is about people who are anti-corporation, anti-corruption, and those who are not, and those who are not afraid to call it out. And that is, it doesn’t have to be progressive or moderate, it can be all of those things. It’s people who are willing to do that, and those are some of the people who are willing to do that, and they are very good examples.
Jennifer Welch: Yeah, definitely. I think that when we have like a corporate-style Democrat on the podcast, I’m like, we’re at the stage in this authoritarian takeover, we’re not at the beginning of it, we’re in the middle of it. So, if we ask you a question, just answer it.
I mean, look at all this shit that Trump gets away with all day every day. Quit with the controlled Democratic messaging. Let it rip. Let’s just go. I mean, buckle up and fight this thing. And when you have those voices on that aren’t beholden and you ask them a yes or no question, you just get that answer, and it’s just so refreshing, and it’s that very vacuum that the Democrats have not filled that caused Trump to rise up.
Jen Psaki: Let’s talk about male fragility, ‘cause that’s fun to talk about.
Angie “Pumps” Sullivan: Oh.
Jen Psaki: First of all, any male in here is not fragile because you’re here and you’re supporting all of the important causes and rights and things that you, all, stand for in a community.
Male fragility is a fun thing to make fun of in the, you know, notion that if you are liberal, you are weak, you are woke, whatever that all means. It’s not true. We need some of those men, I think, who have fallen into that male fragility and are making these accusations to come back and support Democratic candidates. How do we do that?
Angie “Pumps” Sullivan: I keep thinking that because Trump whines like he’s a victim all the time, everybody’s mean to me, nobody does what I say, that at some point, these alpha men will be like, I’m tired of listening to this grown man that inherited a gazillion dollars. They’re going to get sick of it, but I have failed to see that.
But what I have seen of late, and I’m speaking very late, are these bro podcasters in the manosphere, it is starting to break because people are starting to see how they treat immigrants, the First Amendment issues. So, I’m hopeful that that will be a fissure, and at the end of the day, it’s money. These people are motivated by money.
Jen Psaki: Like, meaning, or tell me, this is what you mean, like Theo Von or Joe Rogan kind of being critical of some things that the Trump administration is doing?
Angie “Pumps” Sullivan: Right. It’s not straight down the line. He’s a big alpha man and we’re alpha men. They’re kind of starting to see the cracks.
Jen Psaki: One of the things that I love about your podcast is that you, as you can all tell, say it straight and just hold back nothing. And you talked about your own personal lives and backgrounds to a lot to help people understand.
I think a lot of people in this room are thinking ahead to holidays, Thanksgiving, Christmas, perhaps you’re going to have to sit at a table, be at a holiday party with maybe MAGA people who are from places like Oklahoma. What do they do? What’s your advice for people in this room who were going to go and have to engage with people who they viscerally disagree with on lots of issues?
Angie “Pumps” Sullivan: Well, originally it was news weather sports because my parents, like Jesse Watters, is like, here’s Jesus and here’s Jesse Watters, and it grosses me out so bad.
And so, I used to just news weather sports it with them. And now, I just keep saying to my mother specifically, that makes me so sad for you, that makes me so sad you can’t have empathy for poor people, makes me so sad you don’t have empathy for people that are being ripped away from their families.
And she sputters and she doesn’t respond, but she can’t defend it. I even asked her what would Jesus do, and she said, oh, he’d be all for this. And I’m like, that’s a lie.
Jen Psaki: All right. Well, there you go, everyone. Thank you to these fabulous ladies of the “I’ve Had It” podcast. You can find it anywhere where you get podcasts.
Angie “Pumps” Sullivan: Thank you, all, so much. Thank you.
Jennifer Welch: Thank you.
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Jen Psaki: Hi, this is Jen Psaki, and this is "The Blueprint". So, we had an event this weekend in New York City where I joined Rachel Maddow and Symone Sanders-Townsend, Alicia Menendez, and Lawrence O'Donnell and many other MSNBC hosts you know well. And at that event, I interviewed the co-host of the podcast, “I've Had It”. You'll hear that a little bit later.
But first, I want to share a conversation I had with Rachel Maddow at a dinner hosted by Luke Russert. So, here is "The Blueprint" live from MSNBC Fan Fest 25. We started the conversation with a question from Frank Pawlak of Chicago.
(VIDEO STARTS)
Frank Pawlak: First of all, thank you both for the incredible work you've done and continue to do, you provide support and encouragement to everybody here and millions more, and you know that. Thanks.
Jen Psaki: We're both going to cry now.
Frank Pawlak: Well, here it goes, I had the privilege at last year's MSNBC convention dinner to ask you both how given all the political noise that was going on at that time, how you determined what issue you would focus on, on any given news day. Well, over the last nine months, the noise has changed, it's gotten louder and nearly unbearable.
My question to both of you is how, if at all, have you changed your approach in sorting through the sludge of a news cycle and what considerations you take into account now to probably prioritize what issues are worthy of political commentary?
Jen Psaki: That's a great question. It's great to see you again. I would say first, I'm the child of a therapist so I am in a constant state of self-reflection. And it's a healthy thing to be just like it's healthy to cry.
And I have thought a lot about, unless I could just speak for myself, after the election last November, whether I was talking about and providing a platform for and shedding light on the right things.
And I think there was too much time for me spent navel-gazing at how bad Trump was and talking about how bad Trump was and having people on who talked about how bad Trump was. I'm not saying that's their fault, it just became the totality of the discussion.
And where I have really self-reflected is really thinking about people who are in the arena, who are really doing something about it. So, what are you doing about it? What are you doing to fight back on people who are disappearing people on the streets of our nation's cities, right? What are you doing about the fact that you feel frustrated that they're not extending healthcare subsidies to millions of Americans as they should?
And so the prism for me is part that, and I've thought a lot about not allowing, even when politicians come on and say, well, Trump is terrible and he is a horror show. It's like, okay, well, you have a platform, what are you doing about it? What power do you have and what levers of power you can use? That's one.
The other part, I've really gotten comfortable with my nerdy knowledge of how government functions, which I think is very important to understand and talk about right now. And what is normal? Thank you. We love all the nerds in this room.
What is normal? What is not normal? The things that they are trying to do that don't seem important, but are important, like firing inspectors general, like not allowing whistleblowers to post their complaints through Web sites, which is something they did this week.
So, I've gotten real comfortable in my nerdiness, and that took some self-reflection, but those are some of mine, but what about you?
Rachel Maddow: I love the governance part of it too, because I do feel like we have devalued the idea of serving in Congress.
We've devalued the idea of making legislation. We've devalued the idea of serving in government agencies, particularly Washington-based government agencies, like, we, I think, as Americans, it's not just been a project of the right. I think a lot of us have allowed ourselves to let our respect for the mechanics of our democracy erode a little bit.
And that's wrong because our democracy actually is for all its faults, it's what we've got and it's the best system in the world and it's fragile and we have to stand up for it, and that means even standing up for Congress.
Frank Pawlak: I know.
Rachel Maddow: It's terrible. But so sort of relearning governance I think right now and what's not perfect about it, but why it's better to have it than not is one of the things I've been learning from your show, and I've been trying to think in those lines. And actually, similarly, I've been trying to shift my gaze. I know what Trump wants to do and I think I know a lot about how he wants to do it. I don't think there's much mystery there. With a translation app, you can just watch it happen in any of the other countries where this has happened in the last a hundred years, right?
The last century has been the story of democracies turning into authoritarian or falling to authoritarian movements and leaders. We know what they all want to do. So, therefore, it's not news.
What's news is what our country is going to do about it. What's news is how our country is going to respond. What's news is how our country is going to stand up for the democracy that we all say we don't want to lose.
And so, that's the story. Trump is the background, but the actual action is us, and that's how I try to focus every day.
Luke Russert: All right, next, we have a question from Jacob Lax from Raleigh, North Carolina. Jacob?
Jacob Lax: All right, thank you. So, to both of you, Rachel, you often place current events in a longer historical arc, and, Jen, your work focused on communicating policy as it unfolded in real-time.
So, I'm curious how each of you thinks about time in your own work. The tension between helping people react to what's going on right now and helping them to understand how we got here.
Rachel Maddow: I think of time as being a little bit interchangeable with place, in the sense that I think sometimes it's hard to recognize the situation that you are personally in at that moment.
And so, sometimes the reason that I will use a historical analogy is it is definitely something that we weren't all there for. So, if I'm talking about something that happened in the 1800s or I start talking about something that happened in some other, you know, previous, multiple generations, you have to get outside yourself a little bit to see that. And then that can sometimes help us recognize the parallels for today or recognize the model of heroism or the particular threats or some other analogy that I think is helpful.
It's also sometimes true that it could be something that's contemporaneous, but it's happening in Poland or it's happening in New Zealand or it's happening in West Africa somewhere. It's just the way that my own brain works. I sometimes need to get outside myself to see it through different eyes, and either time or place or some other variable like that helps me do it.
Jen Psaki: Everybody's mind doesn't work the way Rachel Maddow's mind works because everybody --
Rachel Maddow: Thank goodness.
Jen Psaki: -- know this, you know, my mind does not work in the same way. And I often think much more about present day'ish, right, the last 20 to 30 years in politics and government and what I've lived and experienced and what moments tell us about what is normal, what is not normal?
Sometimes it is. I've probably shown more clips of John Boehner, cause this is the world we're living in now, and how people behave from other parties or in working together to reopen the government or in response to a mass shooting or things like that than I ever would've predicted.
Rachel Maddow: And also, I mean, doing a show just weekly rather than doing a show every night, I have to think about time in terms of, am I talking to you about what's happened in the last week or am I talking to you about what's happened in the last day or am I talking to you about what might have happened since the last show started? You know, that's something that you just have to juggle every night based on the imperatives of the moment, I think.
Luke Russert: We have Madeliene Bolden from Savannah, Georgia.
Madeliene Bolden: Good evening, Miss Maddow and Miss Psaki.
Rachel Maddow: Good evening.
Jen Psaki: Good evening. We can be on a first name basis, Madeliene, I hope.
Madeliene Bolden: Empathy is being attacked in today's society. Do you think empathy can survive in journalism without being seen as a weakness?
Luke Russert: Great.
Jen Psaki: I love this question. Before I was at MSNBC, I worked with journalists, of course, in communications and media for 20 years. And what I found were some of the best journalists had tremendous empathy for humans and people and what they were experiencing in events in the world.
And I was at the State's Department for a couple of years, and the reporters and journalists there, hard-hitting, tough, really smart, they covered those issues because they cared about global movements and they cared about peace deals and they cared about negotiations and they cared about ending wars. And that's what made them great journalists.
So, I would say, I think empathy is a strength, empathy is a superpower, empathy allows you to connect and really digest things in a way that is different from robotically repeating things on television. That's not what any of us do. So, that's how I see it. But you're going to say something wiser than me and I'm here for it.
Rachel Maddow: No, no.
Jen Psaki: Let's hear it.
Rachel Maddow: No, just to underscore what you said, I think that you can't tell a good story without empathy 'cause otherwise I mean, I don't have a parent who's a therapist and so maybe people hearing stories about themselves is a helpful thing in therapy, I don't know. But otherwise, every story, by definition, is asking you to leave your own mind and your own experience and imagine or embody somebody else's.
And storytelling, I agree with Ken Burns on this, the great documentarian, stories are what changes the world and stories are indeed what explains the world. And there is not a story, again, outside of potentially a therapeutic context that's about you, it's always about imagining or seeing something else.
And so, I think it's the core of what it is not only to be human and have love in your life and have, you know, moral relationships with people who you care for. I think it's the absolute core of what we do in terms of talking about the world. But thank you for the question.
Jen Psaki: Yeah.
Rachel Maddow: It's beautifully phrased too as well. Thank you.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
Jen Psaki: We're going to take a quick break here, but when we come back, more from me and Rachel and the audience at MSNBC Fan Fest Live 25.
(BREAK)
Luke Russert: Alrighty, we have here Mary Jean White from Aston, Pennsylvania. Mary Jean?
Rachel Maddow: Hi, Mary Jean. Hello.
Jen Psaki: Hi, Mary Jean.
Mary Jean White: Delco (sp?). So, for both of you, what do you see as the biggest challenge in helping the public understand accountability and how it works, how oversight works and how important your role is and our role is?
You mentioned earlier about the I.G. Web sites going down, right? So, the fourth state, you all are all we have left. How do you translate that to folks to have them understand how important it is to understand what oversight is and how it is important that we have it and how we don't have it now? How can we make that real for people when they're sitting in their kitchen and talking to each other after they turn off your show or before they go to bed? So, how do you do that every day?
Rachel Maddow: I have one small point, but I'm interested in your take on this. I mean, I would say, I think that whether or not you are conservative or liberal or engaged or apathetic, I think the idea that it's better to know than to not know is a pretty human thing.
That even if we enjoy escapism, even if a lot of us turned off the news once the news started going in a direction we didn't like, in general, I think it's better to know than to not know.
And one of the great assists that we've got from this administration in particular on convincing people that it's better to know than to not know, that you'd better pay attention, you better have some way to find out what's happening rather than leaving them to their own devices is that they keep robbing all of us blind.
Donald Trump making billions of dollars in less than a year since he's been back in office is something that means something to people because they know they're having their pockets picked. And so, is it better for us to know that that's happening or just to close our eyes and pretend it's not?
And I think there is something instinctual in not just the American people but in people generally to know that, you'd rather not be blindsided. And I think people know instinctively that there's a lot going on that is self-dealing and I think people are reflexively repulsed by that and want to know about it. And so, that's a good way to talk about, well, how will we know about it?
There's no inspectors general, the FBI's instead chasing all the President's political enemies, it's the free press, right, that's how we're going to know. And that's a pretty straightforward argument, I think, particularly in an era of really blatant self-dealing and corruption.
Jen Psaki: I will tell you the thing that worries me is the things that we don't know, right, and that it's hard to know. The inspector generals is an example because it's like, what would they be investigating right now? We don't know. It's kind of an unknowable. The FBI, it's not just Kash Patel's hawking of weird goods and doing what he's doing, it's also the firing of very qualified FBI officials across the country. What threats are they not looking after, what threats are they not following?
And I will say like a personal one that I'm concerned about, and then I will get to a positive point, 'cause I think that's the point here, is the press briefing room, which may sound like a small thing, it is a big thing.
And what I worry about is it's very hard to understand what's happening in there unless you've lived in that room and been the press secretary or a staffer and a reporter. And there are still some very excellent reporters, hard-hitting, tough smart reporters in there, but slowly but surely, they're reshaping the people who get questions and the people who fill that room into people who are sycophants for the administration.
And if you look at the press briefing, and I do more than most people probably because we do a little shtick on our show about it, you see that, you know, some days it's maybe a third of the questions, some days it's half, sometimes it's 15 percent. And there are questions like, and this is literally one once, President Trump looks like he's in such good shape, I want to know what his health regimen is, right?
And, you know, that's funny, but there's also some that are serious, right? And I'm concerned about that because that shapes the public's perception of what the media is. And most people don't know how to differentiate Benny Johnson from other people in the room. Okay, so those are my concerns.
What I think is a powerful thing, is the most powerful tool of information is all of you and individuals and people. People trust their neighbors, they trust people in their community, they trust people they know more than they trust any of the institutions, I mean, government, media, anyone.
So, what I think about a lot is how can we provide a couple of pieces of information that are digestible and warning signs so that you can end the show and be like, you know what's weird? There's eight reporters in that briefing room who got questions who are propagandist, right? That's something that should concern anyone.
But I think part of it is people needing to feel empowered themselves to share the story of what's happening right now, take the information they have and pass it along, which is happening, and that is a plus of social media platforms, I would, say that have many negatives, but that's a plus of them.
Luke Russert: All right.
Rachel Maddow: Luke, do one more. I know we're supposed to be done. Can we just do one more?
Luke Russert: Okay. Rachel wants to do one.
Rachel Maddow: I'm sorry.
Luke Russert: Then you can pick someone from the crowd, Rachel.
Jen Psaki: Oh, yeah, go ahead.
Rachel Maddow: Oh, okay. You're right up here close, use my microphone. Sorry, that was me.
Barbara: Hi, thank you so much. I'm here from Florida and I would just like to thank you for showing all of the film clips you have showed from across the nation in tiny little red places (APPLAUSE) to show us that we are not alone. And that has made such a difference. And I think one of the things we all need to do right now is be in community.
Rachel Maddow: Yeah.
Barbara: And that is helping so much. So, thank you.
Rachel Maddow: What's your name?
Barbara: Barbara.
Rachel Maddow: Barbara.
Barbara: Thank you.
Rachel Maddow: Thank you so much.
Barbara: Thank you.
Rachel Maddow: You know, let's just finish with that. That being in community thing is for real. And what you just said about social media and sharing things that are things that you understand that you think other people should understand, that's for real. But there is something about being in a physical place with other people where you can look them in the eyes.
And that's why I said, make sure you meet somebody here tonight who you didn't know before you got here. There is something about in real-life communication, eyeball-to-eyeball, talking with people about how you are feeling and what you guys might be able to do together, what you might be able to share the burden of in terms of what you think needs to happen in the country.
And if you haven't, I don't care what you join, but if you haven't joined something since we've entered into an authoritarian era in American politics, this is a time to join something. And again, it can be a Zumba class, it's fine. It can be anything where you're meeting in real-life offline with other human beings with whom you can make common cause or at least share your humanity.
Part of the way an authoritarian works is that they stop us from seeing one another in any way that yields to solidarity. They keep us afraid of each other, they keep us angry at each other, they keep us atomized and depressed and not wanting to participate in things in our civic life because civic life seems alien or dangerous.
One of the things we can all do, no matter what your interests are, no matter what your skills are, is join something so that you are seeing people in real-life. And I would just encourage you to find that community where you can. Take inspiration from the fact that they really don't want us to do it. Thank you, guys. Thank you, guys, so much.
Jen Psaki: Thank you, guys.
Luke Russert: Thank you.
Rachel Maddow: Thank you. Thank you, thank you, thank you.
Luke Russert: Rachel and Jen, thank you so much.
(MUSIC)
Jen Psaki: Coming up next to my interview with the host of the “I've Had It” podcast live at MSNBC Fan Fest 25 in New York City.
(BREAK)
Jen Psaki: Before Jennifer Welch and Angie Pump Sullivan launched “I've Had It,” they once co-starred on the Bravo reality series, "Sweet Home Oklahoma," kind of an interior design meets real housewives show.
Now, they have over a million subscribers on YouTube where fans watch the duo mix political commentary with pop culture. They've interviewed everybody from Barack Obama to David Hogg, to Roy Wood Junior, to Chelsea Handler. And then this weekend, I got to interview them on stage.
(MUSIC)
Jen Psaki: All right. Hi, everyone. Okay. I’m going to sit right there.
Jennifer Welch: All right.
Jen Psaki: Okay.
Angie "Pumps" Sullivan: Yay.
Jen Psaki: We're so excited to be here and doing this with all of you, guys. Have a seat. Now, if you have not heard of the “I've Had It” podcast, and I suspect most of you have, it is a part of my sole connection to all of the things that are happening in our world and how we need to respond to them, is a part of my weekly routine. I listen to it on the way home from work. I'm so thrilled to have you both here and we're going to talk about all the things in a totally unfiltered way as everybody would expect, right? So, let's do it.
Jennifer Welch: Thank you for having us.
Jen Psaki: Okay. Okay, so for those of you who aren't familiar with these amazing ladies, we'll do a little introduction so you know, a little bit about them. So let, let me just start. You, guys, have had your podcasts for a while. It didn't start as a political podcast. We looked up what the topic of the first podcast episode was. Do you remember what it was?
Angie "Pumps" Sullivan: Yeah.
Jennifer Welch: Yeah.
Jen Psaki: So the topic was toddlers or assholes. That was the topic of their first episode. And I will say, my kids are 7 and 10, so they're kind of out of the toddlers or assholes stage, although toddlers can be assholes so I can confirm that. But you've kind of evolved over time. It's become more political. It's very direct. Well, how did that evolution happen? Why did it happen?
Jennifer Welch: Well, I've always been a diehard political junkie. And she started getting more and more political during Trump 1.0. And I can't help but talk about politics and I can't help but speak up when I see injustice or racism or sexism or homophobia.
And so, in, you know, Trump, even when Biden was president, Trump was so omnipresent, you couldn't help but get irritated, pissed off and want to just, you know, talk shit about it. And so, that's what we do because it's the only way that you can look at somebody and say, am I crazy or these people crazy, 'cause I need to know what's going on here? So, we started talking about it. And originally, a lot of people were, it was heartbreak hotel, two White women from Oklahoma City that were liberal.
Angie "Pumps" Sullivan: Yeah.
Jennifer Welch: I mean, it was --
Jen Psaki: It's not an easy way to live.
Jennifer Welch: These people were so mad when they found out we weren't MAGA, and that made us want to triple down or quadruple down, and we shed all the MAGA support and then we got the people who really love social justice, equality, democracy, and we build a community and we just like to talk shit.
Jen Psaki: We love it. Okay. One of the most interesting thing, I mean, you're both from Oklahoma or you both have lived in Oklahoma, you just moved here though.
Jennifer Welch: I did.
Jen Psaki: Welcome to New York.
Jennifer Welch: Thank you.
Jen Psaki: Right? I mean, this is a great addition to the New York community. So, Angie, you come from a religious background, you grew up in a religious family. You talked about this a lot on the show.
It's interesting because I think it helps listeners understand a different perspective and a different way people perceive things, which is really important in this moment. So, how has that shaped how you talk about politics or how you see events happening in the world right now?
Angie "Pumps" Sullivan: Well, I was raised super evangelical Christian. And what I think people don't realize is how religiosity is baked into every single thing in Middle America, particularly rural America because they have church and they have their communities and it's the same White people they've seen their whole lives.
So, for me, there was like a turning point in my life where I was like, all the things I'd been sold with my religion, I'm special, nothing bad could happen to me 'cause I'm doing everything right and I'm better and I have this entitlement that makes me able to judge other people.
So, I had an awakening and kind of had to deconstruct all of that to realize that the faith I was brought up in was, in fact, not empathetic, it was not what I was taught that, you know, be nice to everybody. It was very judgmental and entitled.
So many people have reached out and said, we had that same upbringing, that their religion was not empathetic, it was mean and hateful and judgmental. And so, I just want to be a person that was inside of that, but now is able to say, that's wrong, and I know why you're thinking that, and it's not okay.
Jen Psaki: Very well said. You do this amazing thing on your show that everybody who listens and watches knows where you talk about what you've had it with, hence the name of the show. So, I thought we could do a little round. It's your thing, but it's helpful for everybody. It's a form of therapy, I will say, I think.
Angie "Pumps" Sullivan: Yes.
Jen Psaki: So, let me start by saying what I've had it with.
Angie "Pumps" Sullivan: Yeah.
Jen Psaki: I have had it with little Mike Johnson --
Angie "Pumps" Sullivan: Yeah.
Jen Psaki: -- who I will forever call him, and less little John Thune, he's much taller, so he's less little, little bigger, pretending they are powerless in this moment even though they're the Speaker of the House, the second in line to the presidency and the Republican leader of the Senate, pretending they are powerless in this moment to end the shutdown, to make sure people of healthcare subsidies, to ensure earlier than today that military would be paid and to do all the things that they have the power to do, but they behave like they're observers of everything happening in the world, even when they've created it. What have you had it with?
Angie "Pumps" Sullivan: There's so many things. I am a lawyer, but I didn't do like smart people law, I did divorce law. So, but I've had it with the Supreme Court because I revered, yeah.
Jen Psaki: A lot of people have had it with the Supreme Court here.
Angie "Pumps" Sullivan: Yeah.
Jen Psaki: There's a contingent. I don't know if these are lawyers, but there's a standing ovation to this I've had it happening in the back, which kind of tells you something.
Angie "Pumps" Sullivan: Well.
Jen Psaki: This is a good I've had it.
Angie "Pumps" Sullivan: Well, it's because, as a lawyer, I learned to revere them. They were above ethics, they were above personal decisions, conflict of interest. And I realized now they're the most radicalized shilling for fascism. And everything I learned in law school was a lie, so I feel very betrayed by them and I feel like they're complicit in what's going on.
Jen Psaki: Yeah, that's such a good point. I mean, I've been talking to my kids about things like the three branches of government and the traditions of them. I actually taught one of my daughter's Girl Scout troops for a democracy badge and you're explaining the three different parts of government and you're thinking, there's a modern version of this, but I'm not going to educate the fourth graders on it quite yet. Give me a few years.
Okay. I mean, part of the thing that's so wonderful about this event and was wonderful last year is that it's a community of people. Sometimes you're meeting people for the first time. Sometimes you saw them last year. Sometimes you're meeting somebody you're sitting with and this is a safe place for stressing, griping, worrying, talking about the things that concern you.
But I'm a believer. We also need to have kind of moments of light in this moment and things that inspire us or not even inspire, and we'll talk about that later, but things that are good, so let's call out some good things. We will get to some griping 'cause griping is a safe and happy thing to do in therapy sessions.
So, I'm going to start with a thing that I think the Democrats in Congress are doing well right now. I think this fight that they have picked over the extension of healthcare subsidies is the best fight that they have done and led and run the most effectively since Trump was elected. And I say that as someone who's very critical of what they did in the spring.
Angie "Pumps" Sullivan: Yes.
Jen Psaki: Okay. I know 'cause I am a listener, I know how you both feel about the Democratic leaders in the House and Senate, and we will have time to talk about that. Is there one thing they're doing right now that you think is good?
Angie "Pumps" Sullivan: I have been so incredibly impressed with Robert Garcia.
Jen Psaki: Oh, that's a good one.
Angie "Pumps" Sullivan: He has done such a good job in the leadership position that he has. He has been relentless about the Epstein files, even though I'm not convinced we'll ever actually get them, but he will not let it die, and I really appreciate that. In the minority, he has done a great job.
Jen Psaki: This is a really good one.
Jennifer Welch: It's a really good one.
Jen Psaki: Yeah, it's a very good one also because for a long time, it was this theory that it didn't matter who were the ranking members on committees and it really matters who the ranking members are --
Angie "Pumps" Sullivan: Yes.
Jen Psaki: -- on committees 'cause Robert Garcia is not even the chairman of the committee. He's the ranking member. He's tireless and he is pushing like heck to get things done. Okay.
Jennifer Welch: Do you want me to say something positive?
Jen Psaki: Oh, you can add like a little --
Angie "Pumps" Sullivan: Try.
Jen Psaki: -- flavor of something.
Jennifer Welch: Chris --
Jen Psaki: Crisp and positive.
Jennifer Welch: We had Chris Murphy and --
Jen Psaki: Yeah.
Jennifer Welch: -- I think he's excellent. And we had an Oklahoma City native Senator Elizabeth Warren, who's one of my favorites. And when you're speaking to politicians that aren't beholden to corporations, you can tell because you can just ask them questions and they answer it very clearly, and both of them recently, you can just tell they're speaking our language, they understand the fight they're up against. So I really enjoy them.
Jen Psaki: Those are very good examples. I think, one of the conversations I had, the other episode of my new podcast is with Greg Casar, and he is a very impressive young, up and coming rising star.
And one of the things we were talking about was the fact that there sometimes is inaccurate description of what the dividing lines are to me and you reminded me of this. It is about people who are anti-corporation, anti-corruption, and those who are not, and those who are not afraid to call it out. And that is, it doesn't have to be progressive or moderate, it can be all of those things. It's people who are willing to do that, and those are some of the people who are willing to do that, and they are very good examples.
Jennifer Welch: Yeah, definitely. I think that when we have like a corporate-style Democrat on the podcast, I'm like, we're at the stage in this authoritarian takeover, we're not at the beginning of it, we're in the middle of it. So, if we ask you a question, just answer it.
I mean, look at all this shit that Trump gets away with all day every day. Quit with the controlled Democratic messaging. Let it rip. Let's just go. I mean, buckle up and fight this thing. And when you have those voices on that aren't beholden and you ask them a yes or no question, you just get that answer, and it's just so refreshing, and it's that very vacuum that the Democrats have not filled that caused Trump to rise up.
Jen Psaki: Let's talk about male fragility, 'cause that's fun to talk about.
Angie "Pumps" Sullivan: Oh.
Jen Psaki: First of all, any male in here is not fragile because you're here and you're supporting all of the important causes and rights and things that you, all, stand for in a community.
Male fragility is a fun thing to make fun of in the, you know, notion that if you are liberal, you are weak, you are woke, whatever that all means. It's not true. We need some of those men, I think, who have fallen into that male fragility and are making these accusations to come back and support Democratic candidates. How do we do that?
Angie "Pumps" Sullivan: I keep thinking that because Trump whines like he's a victim all the time, everybody's mean to me, nobody does what I say, that at some point, these alpha men will be like, I'm tired of listening to this grown man that inherited a gazillion dollars. They're going to get sick of it, but I have failed to see that.
But what I have seen of late, and I'm speaking very late, are these bro podcasters in the manosphere, it is starting to break because people are starting to see how they treat immigrants, the First Amendment issues. So, I'm hopeful that that will be a fissure, and at the end of the day, it's money. These people are motivated by money.
Jen Psaki: Like, meaning, or tell me, this is what you mean, like Theo Von or Joe Rogan kind of being critical of some things that the Trump administration is doing?
Angie "Pumps" Sullivan: Right. It's not straight down the line. He's a big alpha man and we're alpha men. They're kind of starting to see the cracks.
Jen Psaki: One of the things that I love about your podcast is that you, as you can all tell, say it straight and just hold back nothing. And you talked about your own personal lives and backgrounds to a lot to help people understand.
I think a lot of people in this room are thinking ahead to holidays, Thanksgiving, Christmas, perhaps you're going to have to sit at a table, be at a holiday party with maybe MAGA people who are from places like Oklahoma. What do they do? What's your advice for people in this room who were going to go and have to engage with people who they viscerally disagree with on lots of issues?
Angie "Pumps" Sullivan: Well, originally it was news weather sports because my parents, like Jesse Watters, is like, here's Jesus and here's Jesse Watters, and it grosses me out so bad.
And so, I used to just news weather sports it with them. And now, I just keep saying to my mother specifically, that makes me so sad for you, that makes me so sad you can't have empathy for poor people, makes me so sad you don't have empathy for people that are being ripped away from their families.
And she sputters and she doesn't respond, but she can't defend it. I even asked her what would Jesus do, and she said, oh, he'd be all for this. And I'm like, that's a lie.
Jen Psaki: All right. Well, there you go, everyone. Thank you to these fabulous ladies of the “I've Had It” podcast. You can find it anywhere where you get podcasts.
Angie "Pumps" Sullivan: Thank you, all, so much. Thank you.
Jennifer Welch: Thank you.
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Jen Psaki: Thanks so much for listening to "The Blueprint". You can subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple podcasts to get this and other MSNBC podcasts ad-free. As a subscriber, you'll also get early access and exclusive bonus content.
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All episodes of "The Blueprint" are also available on YouTube. Visit msnbc.com/theblueprint to watch. This episode of "The Blueprint with Jen Psaki" was produced by Frannie Kelley, alongside Julia D'Angelo, Michelle Hoffner, Andrew Joyce, Tricia McKinney, and Iggy Monda. Additional production support from Makena Roberts.
Our audio engineers are Bob Mallory and Mark Yoshizumi. Katie Lau is the senior manager of audio production. Our senior producer is Miguel Susana. And Alex Lupica is the executive producer of The Briefing. Aisha Turner is the executive producer of MSNBC audio. And Madeleine Haeringer is senior vice president in-charge of audio, digital and long form.